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Clause 33
Amendment made: No. 100, in page 15, line 5, leave out 'refusal' and insert 'partial revocation'.--[Mr. Ottaway.]
Clause 34
Amendment made: No. 101, in page 16, line 29, leave out 'books' and insert 'records'.--[Mr. Ottaway.]
Clause 36
Amendments made: No. 102, in page 18, line 4, leave out 'may'.
No. 103, in page 18, line 5, after '(a)' insert 'may'.
No. 89, in page 18, line 28, after 'section' insert 'and section 15A below'.--[Mr. Ottaway.]
Clause 38
Amendments made: No. 104, in page 19, line 1, at end insert--
' "licence", "licensed pistol club" and "licensed premises" have the meanings given by section 12 above;'.
No. 82, in page 19, line 17, at end add--
'(6) The provisions of this Act shall be treated as contained in the 1968 Act for the purposes of the Firearms Act 1982 (imitation firearms readily convertible into firearms to which section 1 of that Act applies).'.--[Mr. Ottaway.]
Schedule 1
Amendments made: No. 105, in page 20, line 5, after 'who' insert '(a)'.
No. 75, in page 20, line 6, after first 'pistol', insert 'belonging to him'.
No. 106, in page 20, line 7, at end insert '; and
(b) will, after the appointed day, be required to keep that pistol at licensed premises of a licensed pistol club.'.
No. 76, in page 20, line 16, leave out 'voluntarily'.
No. 77, in page 20, line 17, at end insert 'under paragraph 8A(2) below'.
No. 107, in page 20, line 25, leave out second 'renewal' and insert 'renewed'.
No. 108, in page 21, line 11, leave out 'deliver' and insert 'release'.
No. 109, in page 21, line 21, after 'require' insert 'such'.
No. 110, in page 21, line 23, leave out 'which' and insert 'as'.
No. 78, in page 21, line 33, leave out 'voluntarily'.
No. 79, in page 21, line 43, at end insert--
'Voluntary surrender of pistols
8A.--(1) A person to whom this Schedule applies may before the appointed day, surrender a small-calibre pistol belonging to him at any designated police station instead of keeping it at licensed premises of a licensed pistol club or delivering it into police custody.
(2) Where a small-calibre pistol has been delivered into police custody, the person who delivered it may (if it still belongs to him) surrender the pistol by giving notice that he is surrendering it to the chief officer of police for the area in which the designated police station to which he delivered it is situated.
8B. The Secretary of State may make such payments, to such persons, as he may consider appropriate in respect of small-calibre pistols which are surrendered, or are treated as having been surrendered, by virtue of paragraph 8 or 8A above.'.--[Mr. Ottaway.]
Schedule 2
Amendments made: No. 83, in page 22, line 27, after '23(2) insert ', 32(2)'.
No. 111, in page 23, line 26, at end insert--
'6A. In section 44(1) (appeals from police decisions under Part II), for the words "section 26, 29, 30" there shall be substituted the words "section 28A, 29, 30A, 30B, 30C".
6B. In section 54(1) (application of Parts I and II to the Crown) for the words "26 to 32" there shall be substituted the words "26A to 32".'.--[Mr. Ottaway.]
Order for Third Reading read.
11.1 pm
Mr. Howard: The Bill is a complicated one. It deals with a vital public issue, and right hon. and hon. Members have given voice to a number of important concerns. I pay especial tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Sir J. Wiggin), who has moved the many amendments in his name with considerable persistence and skill.
I shall not go over again the background to the Bill. It has always been the Government's intention to recognise the priority that has to be given to achieving the protection of the public while allowing a limited amount of competitive pistol shooting to continue, so long as that could be combined with the protection of the public.
We have accepted, as I said earlier, all 23 of Lord Cullen's recommendations, and we have sought to achieve the objectives that he set out in his suggestions for the control of the ownership and possession of pistols in a different way. We have also sought to make reasonable exclusions from the scope of the Bill, when consistent with those objectives, and we have made a number of concessions on the question of compensation.
The exceptions include the exclusion of muzzle-loading firearms from the general prohibition, which will allow their continued use by historical enactment societies and their holding by collectors. There will be no changes to the existing arrangements for antique pistols.
I announced on Second Reading that we would introduce an amendment to deal with historic handguns made before 1939. We have taken the views of the Firearms Consultative Committee and others, but we are not quite ready to table an amendment on that point. We shall do so when the Bill is in another place. We also intend to table amendments in another place to extend the scope of museum licences to ensure that regimental and other museums that are not publicly funded will be able to apply to keep weapons of historical importance.
In response to concerns expressed in Committee and earlier today, we have asked the Firearms Consultative Committee to look afresh at controls on air weapons and on age limits in general. If there is a case for putting forward changes, and if time allows, we shall do so in another place.
The Bill is an important measure to protect and reassure the public by banning the majority of handguns from the home and public places. It imposes rigorous controls over the procurement, ownership, storage, use and disposal of the smaller calibre pistols that may continue to be used for the sport of target shooting.
Mr. Jack Straw (Blackburn):
We support Third Reading, as we have supported the Bill throughout its passage. During today's debates, many hon. Members on both sides of the House who have spoken in favour of amendments intended to reduce the degree of gun control in the Bill have understandably claimed that most or even all of the speakers in debates on particular amendments, apart from the people on the Front Benches, have supported that liberalisation of control.
One understands why those hon. Members make that point, but I must tell the House, especially my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook), that it is important to bear in mind the fact that, on Second Reading, the Bill was endorsed by an overwhelming vote. That was well demonstrated when only 35 Members voted in favour of the reasoned amendment, while 384 voted against it.
Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North):
The Bill may have gone through on an overwhelming vote, but it also provoked the biggest revolt in the Government party that I can remember in the 17 years during which I have been a Member of Parliament. More than 100 Conservative Members want to have nothing to do with the Bill, and they are right.
Mr. Straw:
It is a bit difficult to divine whether there has been a Government revolt, judging by the number of abstentions--[Interruption.]
Mr. Frank Cook:
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I suffer badly from partial hearing loss, and I am anxious to hear every syllable of my hon. Friend's speech. There is much discussion taking place inside the Chamber but beyond the Bar. May I ask you to draw the attention of the House to that fact?
Madam Deputy Speaker:
I think that the point has been made, because all those hon. Members have now left the Chamber.
Mr. Cook:
And it was all done without a handgun.
Mr. Straw:
My hon. Friend obviously has a future ahead of him in clearing rooms.
If the hon. Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow) judges Government revolts by the numbers of Conservative Members who abstain, he should know that the number who abstained on Second Reading of the Crime (Sentences) Bill was rather larger than the number who abstained on Second Reading of the Bill before us. [Interruption.] That happens to be a matter of fact. I do not pretend that it is a sign of an extensive revolt in the governing party.
In an intervention during the excellent speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, North (Mr. Henderson) in an earlier debate, a Conservative Member--I think, but am not certain, that it was the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill)--asked when, before the tragedy in Dunblane, anyone in the House had talked about stricter gun control.
The answer is that, over several years, many hon. Members have raised that issue. My hon. Friends the Members for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson)
4 Dec 1996 : Column 1164
The Conservative Government led by the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath) also examined the matter, with the publication in 1972 of a commendable Green Paper on firearms control, which, sadly, was never followed through into legislation.
The answer to the question asked by the hon. Member for Ludlow is very much in the affirmative, but there is a related question that he might have asked, to which there is a profoundly depressing and negative answer. That question is: what notice was taken of those who called for gun control before Dunblane? The dismal answer is that, despite the persuasiveness of their arguments, in practice little notice was taken of those who had the foresight to call for greater gun control. I admit that that applies to both sides of the House.
The victims of Dunblane--indeed, the victims of Hungerford--might have been saved had notice been taken, but it was not. With the benefit of hindsight on both sides of the House, we can now see that this Bill should have been on the statute book years ago. We must all share in the responsibility for the dismal truth that it will have taken the dreadful massacre at Dunblane to get it on to the statute book.
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