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Mr. John Carlisle (Luton, North): In the very unlikely event of Labour taking power, what will its attitude be to shotguns? I know that the hon. Gentleman's personal opinion, as expressed on the Floor of the House, is that he does not foresee any further restrictions, but there has been pressure from Opposition Back Benchers, as some of the amendments tabled to the Bill have shown. Can he give us an absolute assurance that a Labour Government--should there be one--will not restrict shotguns under any circumstances?

Mr. Straw: I can give the hon. Gentleman almost all the assurances he seeks. We made it clear in the evidence that we gave to Lord Cullen's inquiry that we saw a clear distinction between shotguns and other firearms.

Mr. Budgen: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Straw: I will in a moment, but I would like to answer the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle)

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first, if that is acceptable. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) is a man of great politeness, and he will wish to show some consideration to his hon. Friend.

We said in our evidence that there is a case for distinguishing--as the law currently does--between shotguns and other firearms. Shotguns are in widespread use in rural areas by farmers in keeping down vermin, and by those involved in game shooting. We also said that we thought that there should be a tightening of the system for applying for and being issued with a certificate. We have no proposals, and I anticipate none, for introducing general bans on the use of shotguns. I make that absolutely clear.

Mr. Budgen: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman agrees that this measure has come as a result of popular pressure acceded to by both the Government and the Opposition Front Benches. One of the most important and persuasive advocates of that motive for legislation has been my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor). He was asked, "If somebody went mad and killed a lot of people with a shotgun, would you be in favour of a ban on shotguns, provided there was a sufficient public clamour?"

He made it plain that, as far as he was concerned, the cry of the mob was what activated him most of all in the introduction of legislation. If that is the view of one of the most persuasive and eloquent Tory advocates of a general ban, how can we sure that the Labour party will not be similarly persuaded?

Mr. Straw: Because members of the mob are to be found only on the Conservative Benches--that is the simple answer. We exercise our judgment on these matters. [Interruption.] I shall ignore the sedentary intervention about the number of mobsters at Stamford Bridge from my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, North (Mr. Henderson), as this is a serious debate. We have reached our view, and the right hon. and learned Member for Putney has come to a different view.

I do not believe that shotguns are in the same category as handguns. Shotguns are not manufactured to kill human beings, although I know that they can do so. [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Sir J. Wiggin) wants to tell me that they are manufactured for that purpose, I will readily give way to him.

Shotguns are used for what I regard as legitimate sports, and we have no proposals to change the current regime on them except in respect of certification procedures. Those changes would be widely accepted by those who legitimately and lawfully use shotguns.

The parents of the 16 children killed at Dunblane have grieved for their sons and daughters every day since 13 March, and they will do so every day for the rest of their lives. Anniversaries are particularly hard to bear, especially when children have died. While most of us will be celebrating Christmas this year, the pain at their loss will be all the more intense for the parents of Dunblane and their relatives and friends.

We have actively co-operated with the Government to get the legislation on the statute book. It was a widely shared hope that it would pass through both Houses and be law by Christmas. That has not, in the event, proved

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possible, but the fact that the Bill has proceeded through all its stages in the Commons before Christmas may serve as a testament to all the parents of Dunblane and their relatives and friends of our determination to ensure, as far as humanly possible, that such a senseless waste of life never happens again.

11.15 pm

Mr. Budgen: This is a bad Bill, badly made. It has been badly made partly because the Opposition agree to it in principle and partly because the Government have been so unwise as to impose not a justified guillotine, after proper discussion or the suspicion of filibustering, but a scandalous and precautionary guillotine at the very beginning. I call it scandalous because the parents of Dunblane and the whole nation deserve to have legislation that is properly made.

One of the conditions of having legislation properly made is that those who feel strongly about something should listen carefully to those who feel equally strongly, so that they can be persuaded at least to understand that others share their passion, albeit from a different point of view.

The legislation has also been scandalously badly made because of the way in which we have brought together Report and Third Reading. When the already scandalous proposal for a precautionary guillotine was introduced, it was at first proposed that there should be a gap between Report and Third Reading, which would have allowed a period of consultation between those who are affected and those who are making the law.

There is no way in which the gun clubs can say whether they believe, for instance, that the proposals for compensation will be fair to them, and no way in which the lawyers can examine the hastily made amendments and say whether the legislation is sound.

We hear many speeches about the impertinence of the judges, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary often jokes about the way in which he is so often in conflict with the judiciary. In three or four years' time, the House of Lords in its judicial capacity will have to examine one of the amendments that you, Madam Deputy Speaker, helped the Government to nod through in the last five minutes before 11 o'clock, and the Home Secretary and a vast number of lawyers, at great expense to the public, will have to weigh up with agonising care the meaning of some phrase that has not even been considered in our proceedings.

Can we wonder that the judges say that Parliament is not doing its job, and that it acts as a vote-catching machine, not a proper legislature? Can we complain when they regard themselves as operating in some way as subsidiary Back Benchers? Can we wonder that they extend the doctrine of judicial review when we behave so badly as we have in the course of these proceedings?

I want to introduce a word that Lord Cullen used in his report, because it seemed to me to be a new word: proportionality. The Home Secretary--and I, rather inadequately--learned our law at about the same time at Cambridge. I remember that the word in those days was "reasonableness", but "proportionality" seems to be the word that is used now, especially by lawyers who know something about European law.

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It is not a bad word, especially when everyone is always talking about the necessity for public safety. However, public safety is not an absolute good to be pursued at all costs and in all circumstances. The public must accept some risks in their lives, as we all do. We cannot obliterate risk all the time at the greatest cost in terms both of freedom and public expenditure.

In our disgracefully truncated proceedings today, we have arbitrarily extended the recommendations made by Lord Cullen. Before anybody says that this is only the voice of a mixture of muddled libertarianism and aggressive gun club rhetoric--

Mr. Straw: It is.

Mr. Budgen: I hope that it is not.

I accept that firearms were inadequately controlled before the Cullen report. I have a little experience of that because, as an occasional hack provincial barrister, it has been my job over the years to appear on behalf of people who wanted to get firearms certificates. I accept that the procedure was too lax. It was necessarily too lax, because it is drummed into everyone who has anything to do with our system of criminal law that we are all presumed innocent until proved guilty. There is no doubt that, from time to time, rather odd and potentially dangerous people got firearms certificates. I am glad that Lord Cullen suggested a way to make that first barrier more stringent, and it should be adopted.

Lord Cullen also suggested a second and very helpful barrier. He said that people should be obliged to be members of gun clubs. That would result in constant surveillance by gun club members, because they would be anxious to keep their own certificates so that they could continue their lawful--and some would say, patriotic--sport. I think that that was enough.

Then there is the doctrine of proportionality. What are we doing in this Bill?

Mr. William Ross: Does the hon. Gentleman, like me, find it passing strange that Lord Cullen did not examine the granting and refusal of firearms certificates in Northern Ireland, where it is an executive rather than a legal matter?

Mr. Budgen: I do not know that I think it should be only an executive matter.

Mr. Ross: It works.

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