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11.37 pm

Mr. Beith: Notwithstanding the criticisms that have been made of the Bill and the way in which it has been proceeded with, it has been improved in its progress through the House, and the effort of several hon. Members has been worth while. The compensation provisions, although still far from satisfactory in some respects, have been improved. We are grateful for that.

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I was especially worried that those who own the smaller guns that would remain legal would find themselves with an unmarketable gun, whose value would be virtually destroyed, and no access to the compensation scheme. The Government have sought to change that provision, and I welcome that change on their part.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel) and my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Mr. Chidgey) argued strongly that there should be some form of independent valuation. The Government conceded today that, when disputes arise, some form of valuation should be available, even if not in the form proposed in our amendment. I very much welcome that.

There has also been some improvement in clarifying the exemptions from the Bill, which Labour Front-Bench spokesmen would call loopholes. Even Labour's ban would have made provision for vets, as well as those involved in slaughtering animals, to hold guns. One man's loophole is another man's legitimate exception for the purposes of his profession or, as some would argue, of his sport. There is a legitimate discussion to be had about what exceptions should be allowed under whatever ban in ultimately enforced.

There have been--quite properly--discussions of antiques, muzzle-loading weapons, re-enactment societies and so on; and some improvements have been secured. In another place, more work will have to be done on those issues.

There have been differences within all three parties over the central issue of handguns. Most of my right hon. and hon. Friends felt that they should support the idea of a virtually total ban, as proposed by the Labour party. Others did not, and we exercised our right to a free vote accordingly, but on three points there should, I feel, be widespread agreement. First, the method of proceeding in this matter has been far from satisfactory. After so dreadful an incident as Dunblane, it was reasonable that the public should expect a fairly quick response from the Government and the legislature. However, that does not really justify the way in which it was done.

I particularly draw attention to what took place on the day that the Cullen report was published. The Government prepared their own position, to announce at the same time as the report was published. A handful of us were able to spend the morning reading the report and another half hour looking at the Government's view. In almost any other democratic country, and in many other circumstances in this country, the route would be: publish the report, have some public discussion of it, then reach a conclusion. The Government simply announced their conclusion, which differed from the report, before anybody else could read it--least of all those whose professions or sporting activities were in this area--and that was certainly not a sensible way to proceed.

The Government were committed before they could hear anyone else's views on what Lord Cullen had said. I do not regard that as a sensible way to proceed; it has led to many of the difficulties that the legislation presents.

The second point on which there ought to be general agreement concerns the value of the provisions in part III, which arise directly from the Cullen recommendations

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that the licensing system should be tightened up. For instance, anyone seeking to renew a licence should be open to as much scrutiny and prospect of refusal as when first taking out the licence. Lord Cullen regarded these and related provisions as important. I hope that all hon. Members do, too. They lead me to believe that I would be wrong, despite my criticisms of the Bill, to oppose the Bill as a whole. I want those part III provisions brought into force.

There is one more point on which we ought to try to secure general agreement. At times, that has not been apparent, when there have been emotional speeches about how we should respond to the understandable concerns of the Dunblane families and the press. It would be quite wrong to create false expectations about what the legislation can achieve. The most promising part of the Bill is to be found in part III and in the signal that it will give to police forces to be much more effective in implementation than the Central Scotland constabulary were in the case of Hamilton. It is to be hoped that there will be a general tightening up of procedures.

Leading people to believe that, because of a further restriction on the legal holding of guns, the country will be a safer place would falsify the picture and create quite false expectations. Vigilance of all kinds will continue to be required, especially on the part of those enforcing the legislation, and it does legislation and the work of Parliament no good to suggest that we can achieve miracles when we cannot.

11.43 pm

Mr. John Carlisle: I apologise for my absence from the proceedings earlier this afternoon. It was, as reported in The Daily Telegraph, because I was shooting at home with five or six colleagues and 15 or 16 beaters. They were not gun-crazed madmen out to destroy everything in their path; they were reasonable, honest people--some of them taking a day's holiday to enjoy a day's beating. They were typical of those who are seriously affected by this Bill. They are ordinary people who are devastated by the effect it will have on their sport. That is why I have totally opposed the progress of the Bill through this place.

I shall make three brief points, each related to a myth. The first, as my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Sir J. Wiggin) said, is the myth that the Bill may be passed tonight on the basis that public opinion demands it. That is nonsense, as those of us who have had enormous postbags can demonstrate. The Bill is a concession to the lobby mounted partly by the Labour party and partly by the Snowdrop campaign, purely on the basis of emotion. It is always difficult to argue against emotion, which overtook rational thinking. The Government regrettably abandoned reason and took emotion on board, as did the Labour party, especially at its conference. That myth has now been exploded.

The second myth is that this is the Firearms (Amendment) Bill. It is not; it is the Firearms (Confiscation) Bill. It takes firearms from honest people who, through their own efforts, have pursued a sport that they thoroughly enjoy, a noble sport that, as hon. Members on both sides have said, has brought our country great prestige. The Bill will take away weapons that people use legitimately. Those are ordinary folk who vote for us when we look for their support at general elections.

The third myth is that the Bill will do anything to prevent another Dunblane. It will not prevent another Hamilton. As the hon. Member for Stockton, North

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(Mr. Cook) said in an eloquent and sensible speech, the Bill will have no effect other than to increase the number of illegal guns. That will be an important issue, come the general election. Sadly, I will not contest the election, but great men are trying to persuade electors in various directions. I hope that electors will consider their candidates' attitude to the Bill, as well as to other issues.

This is a confiscation Bill which takes away the freedom of the individual. It shames the House and the Government that we should think of introducing it in the form in which it has been presented to us this evening.

11.46

Mr. Salmond: It would be irrelevant whether the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) contested the election or not--either way, he certainly would not be here afterwards. One of the great consolations offered by the Bill is the hon. Gentleman's agitation. He was so agitated a few moments ago that he stuck his tongue out at me across the Chamber. That was one of his more elevated contributions to the debate. One of his hon. Friends told me at an earlier stage of the proceedings that he thought that the hon. Gentleman had a hide like a rhinoceros. I think that that was an underestimate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris): Order. We are on the Third Reading of the Bill.

Mr. Salmond: I was being mild about the hon. Member for Luton, North, given his behaviour during the entire proceedings, and many people in Scotland will know what I am talking about.

The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) who, by contrast, has made some intelligent contributions to the debate, said earlier that this was a bad Bill. I do not think that it is a bad Bill, but it is a deficient Bill because at its heart there is a contradiction--an uneasy compromise between the ambitions of the Secretary of State for Scotland who, it is widely supposed, wanted to eliminate handguns, and the Home Secretary, who wanted to protect some elements of handgun use.

That uneasy compromise is shown up in three aspects of the Bill. First, there is a distinction between handguns of .22 calibre and those of higher calibre. That distinction is impossible to defend in terms of intelligence or logic. Secondly, the Bill allows and creates arsenals at handgun clubs, which will continue to store .22 weapons. Those are deadly weapons and the stores will be arsenals for criminals and others. That argument, which was advanced by the gun lobby itself during the Cullen inquiry, has not been effectively answered by the Bill.

I hope that, if the Secretary of State sums up, he will address the third issue. Many of us are concerned about the loophole in the Bill that would allow the number of .22 weapons to grow rather than diminish over time, as people trade down from higher calibre weapons. There are areas of concern and deficiencies in the Bill, but it is an improvement on the current position. As I can say that about little of the Government's legislative programme, if the issue is forced to a Division, my hon. Friends and I shall support it on Third Reading as we did on Second Reading.

Issues such as this generate much emotion, and it would be a very strange person who did not feel emotional about the tragic massacre at Dunblane. However, I do not

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believe that the arguments for a total handgun ban were put on purely emotional grounds. I think that they were argued on sensible, logical grounds, and that that argument is much superior to the uneasy compromise that the Government have reached. When the proceedings are concluded, all hon. Members should be able to say that they have squared their actions with their consciences. Many hon. Members on both sides of the argument can make that assertion, but all cannot.

The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, North (Mr. Henderson) said that the issue will go to the election. That is true, but I assure him that some people in Scotland will look at the proceedings in this place and at the lack of action this evening and will think ill of those who were not prepared to pursue their arguments into the Division Lobby. People want to see hon. Members square their actions with their consciences.

I pay tribute to the conduct and the campaign of the Dunblane relatives and to the Snowdrop petition, which was attacked by the hon. Member for Luton, North. Throughout the debate, they have behaved with enormous dignity and advanced their arguments with enormous dignity. Any hon. Member with the sense to listen to those arguments owes them an enormous debt of gratitude.

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