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7.22 pm

Mr. Roger Gale (North Thanet): I shall not detain the House long. I know that many hon. Members have business outside the House. I owe an apology to Olivia

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Burge of Briary Church primary school, who expected me to be at her carol service tonight. I hope that she and her classmates will understand that I have business here and will recognise the need for some of us to discuss these matters.

I must declare an interest in two pharmaceutical companies. That has never hindered me from speaking on this subject, and I do not propose to allow it to do so tonight. Hon. Members who know me know that that is my position.

I have great sympathy with the views expressed by the hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley), and I hope to explain to my hon. Friend the Minister why. I was privileged to serve on the Committee on the 1986 Animals (Scientific Procedures) Bill, as it then was, which was introduced by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor) with considerable courage.

It was widely considered at the time that the Bill was a significant step forward in animal welfare. Its achievements should be recognised, but it is now 10 years since the Act was passed. It is under review by the Animal Procedures Committee and I understand that Professor Brazier and her colleagues hope to report in full in early or mid-spring next year. We look forward to their recommendations, because science and public opinion have moved on since the Bill became an Act.

My view, which is shared by colleagues on both sides of the House, is that not enough progress has been made in those 10 years, especially in Europe. Many of us believe strongly that, if there is to be progress on the use of animals in medical and cosmetic experiments, that will be achieved properly only on a Europewide basis. In the United Kingdom we have made a little progress, with the outlawing of the import of wild-caught primates. Many of us think that that should be a Europewide ban and we object to the import into the European Union of primates of any kind.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes): Order. Before the hon. Gentleman continues, I trust that this is a preliminary to a discussion of charges.

Mr. Gale: I am coming directly to the subject of fees and charges, Madam Deputy Speaker. As the hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe said, much could be achieved if the fees were higher.

Mr. Tony Banks: Experimentation on primates should stop. We are told that they are no longer imported from the wild, although there are some infringements. Would it not be preferable to move away from the use of primates for experimental purposes?

Mr. Gale: I understand and respect the hon. Gentleman's position. He, I think, understands mine. I have never believed that one will solve a problem by moving it from A to B, which is why I am adamant that we must seek Europewide solutions; otherwise I fear that we shall end experiments in this country, only to find that they move, possibly to one of the southern European states, where animals will not be treated even as well as they are treated in laboratories in the UK.

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In principle, I agree with the hon. Gentleman. As part of a step-by-step approach, the step of banning the use of wild-caught animals in the UK was a sound one. I would like it extended Europewide. I should like Europe to stop importing primates for medical or scientific experiments as soon as possible. I should like alternatives to be introduced, as I know would the hon. Gentleman.

The European Union has copped out of the cosmetics argument. The EC passed a directive stating that the use of animals in cosmetic testing would be phased out as soon as there were validated alternatives. We saw a flurry of welcome activity and investment, especially by the cosmetic companies, to explore possible alternatives. When it became clear that the implementation of the directive was unlikely to be possible within the time--this relates directly to the fees argument and the work of the European Centre for the Validation of Alternative Methods--and when it became clear that validated alternatives would not be available, the Commission ducked the issue. Implementation has been postponed indefinitely.

The investment that was generated by the incentive of the end date has gone. The money from the cosmetic companies has been withdrawn. The small research companies that were investigating alternatives--I have in mind a particular laboratory in Scotland--find that their work is no longer being funded.

That bring us to the fees, which are modest. I recall--as I believe you do, Madam Deputy Speaker--that, during the passage of the Bill, the provisions for fees and charges were made specifically to back up the work of the inspectorate and the APC and to invest in research into alternative methods. Ten years on, insufficient money is being spent.

Those of us who have contacts in the pharmaceutical industry know that those companies believe that many experiments are carried out unnecessarily, but international agreements require them to be done. The APC should address those issues, and would be more able to do so if it was better funded. I do not see why that should become a burden on the British taxpayer. The companies that have a real and honourable interest in this would be willing to pay more in fees and charges if they believed that that would obviate the need for the animals in their animal houses which, frankly, most of them do not want any more than we do.

In the past couple of years, the inspectorate has been reduced. My hon. Friend the Minister will say that it has not been reduced, and that the level was raised to cope with the introduction of the Act. Once the Act had taken effect, it was no longer necessary to have the additional manpower. With respect, my hon. Friend has always overlooked the fact that the scientific procedures in which pharmaceutical companies and others developing new household goods are engaged are infinitely more complex than they were. They require greater understanding and a higher, not a lower, level of inspection.

One of the bases of the inspectorate was recently moved from the home counties back to central London. The effect has been--not may be, but has been--to give the inspectorate greater travelling time. It spends more time on the road and less time in the laboratories. I believe that it was intention of the House, and of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Putney and those of us who worked on the Act originally, that the inspectorate

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should be able to do a thorough job. It should be made up not only of doctors, but of vets who are qualified to go into laboratories to examine animal husbandry and to challenge the issue of every licence, if necessary. Inspectors must ensure that animal life is not wasted in the way that many of us believe it currently is.

It is vital that the inspectorate is not weakened, but enhanced, and the companies themselves would welcome that. The House owes it to the spirit and the letter of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 to impose a level of charges that allows the inspectorate and the APC to operate properly. I do not believe that the procedures of the House will allow my hon. Friend the Minister to announce a sudden increase, but I urge him to go back to the Home Office and look carefully at the figures to see whether it is possible, through a further increase in these fees and charges, to fund the work that all hon. Members want to see.

7.32 pm

Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West): I have listened with great care to the hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr. Gale), who works closely with us, and leads us, in the all-party animal welfare group. We do not always agree--even on this matter--but he respects my views, and I his. I cannot extend that act of charity to the Minister tonight, and it makes nonsense of our procedures if he is not prepared to make a fist of the draft statutory instrument. There are a number of questions that I wanted to ask, and the Minister appears to be getting out from under as fast as he can. He does himself no great credit, and he has not enhanced the scrutiny powers of this place.

Mr. Sackville: The hon. Gentleman has an opportunity to ask his questions. I was proposing a narrow order about an increase in fees, which I thought I did admirably.

Mr. Banks: Self-commendation is no great thing in this place, which is full of people who think that they ought to have been Prime Minister. I suggest that the Minister adopt a more humble role in this place--otherwise his present role will be the only one he will ever have.

The Minister told us little about the draft statutory instrument. He said that there was a shortfall of 3,000 licences and that therefore there was a need to raise extra resources through the increased fees. But he did not tell us how many licences we gain fees from. That is important, as from that we can start to work out precisely the number of companies and groups involved in animal experimentation.

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley) that the proposed increases--from £110 to £135--are miserly and absurd, given the money made within the pharmaceutical and cosmetic industries, and research generally. The idea that £135, and a one-off fee of £89, is reasonable is absurd. The Minister told us nothing about total income, or how much the shortfall was in pounds, shillings and pence. I hoped that he would address those matters, and I hope now that, belatedly, he will apply his mind to these points when he replies to this short debate.

I am caught in a position of some equivocation, as I do not agree with animal experimentations--period. I take an absolutist position on this, which I realise puts me in something of a minority in the House. However, I believe

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that we do not have the right to experiment on animals at all. Who are we to say that animals should suffer on our behalf? But if we are to do these experiments, the fees ought to be at such a level that people think carefully about whether they want to apply for a licence. In addition, increasing the fees could also produce some resources for the Home Office to enable it to police the licensing regime with a damn sight more efficiency and thoroughness than it does.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe said that the Act requires scientists to consider the use of alternatives, and the Home Office is there to study the difference between gain and pain in terms of experimentation. That can be done only if there are enough inspectors spending enough time thinking objectively and coolly about the matter. Funding is needed for more research projects in universities to look at these matters, but that cannot be done with the present miserly budget.

We have been told that the budget for looking at alternatives to animal experimentation is £253,000. Is that the real size of the budget, given the mega-millions that the industries that use these animals for experimentation are spending? Is that all we are spending? The Minister and the Home Office cannot be serious if this is the sort of money that they are talking about. If the fees are supposed to fund the inspectorate, it is not surprising that there are only 19 inspectors.

The inspectors' work load in 1994 included the assessment of 955 project licences, the monitoring of the work of 15,700 licensed applicants and the inspection of 328 research establishments in the United Kingdom. Is that the level of the problem with which they have to deal? Is that the scale of the work load? Are we seriously suggesting that we are taking inspection seriously, with just 19 inspectors? If we raise money to pay for the inspectors from the amounts we charge for licences, let us stick it on the licensees. If they want to experiment, let them pay for it. People like me do not want them to do it, but I am damned if I will let them do it when they know that they will not even be supervised within the terms of the 1986 Act.

All the good intentions that I hear will amount to nothing if we are unable adequately to police those pieces of legislation on which we insist in this place. Does the Home Office really care? Does the inspectorate really care? To what extent is the inspectorate hand in glove with the pharmaceutical industry in terms of experimentation? People may say that I am being unfair in making these allegations, but I feel that it is totally obscene for us to experiment on any animal. If we were to change to a more healthy life style, we might not have so many diseases. We might then not need to use animals in experiments to find ways of solving the problems that we have created ourselves.

I do not believe that we have the moral superiority to say that animals should suffer because of our ineptitude, stupidity and short-sightedness in living the unhealthy lives that we do. If we want to poison ourselves, let us do it, but we should not then kill animals to try to find an antidote. That may not be a popular view in the House, but I hold it strongly and I know that many people in this country hold it equally strongly.

If we must have experimentation and if we are to allow that obscenity to continue, let us at least police it properly. The Minister's inadequate introduction tonight has not

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convinced me that he genuinely wants a reduction in the number of experiments. I understand that there were about 2.8 million experiments in 1994.

We have heard about some of the pointless experiments, such as the LD50 and Draize tests, that are still carried out in the cosmetics industry, and my hon. Friend--he is my friend in this context--the Member for North Thanet told us about the failure of the European Union to agree a common position. I disagree with him in that respect, because we are here to set an example, rather than merely to go at the pace of the slowest movers in the European Union. We should set an example and argue from a position of strength.

I cannot vote tonight against the increase in charges, but I want to register my total detestation of and opposition to all animal experiments. If the Home Office and the Government were serious about reducing the number of experiments, properly funding research into the alternative of non-animal experimentation and ensuring that there were enough inspectors, they would know that the measly, derisory and pathetic increases that the Minister proposed are totally unacceptable.

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