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Civil Servants (Responsibilities)

4. Mr. Mudie: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister when he last met the Cabinet Secretary to discuss the responsibilities of civil servants.[6497]

The Deputy Prime Minister: We meet to discuss civil service matters whenever necessary.

Mr. Mudie: Will the Deputy Prime Minister place on record his regret at the two recent Government attempts to force civil servants to breach their political neutrality? Will he also convey to the Cabinet Secretary the thanks of the House for his prompt action to stop that happening?

The Deputy Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman will know that, as there is no validity in either of his suggestions, there is nothing for which to apologise. It does no good at all for the Labour party to try to undermine the credibility of our civil service and to think that the civil service would have any involvement in the politicisation of its activities. That is not compatible with Government policy and it is totally inconsistent with the high standards of the civil service.

Mr. Nicholls: Is there not more than a whiff of cant in complaints about the politicisation of the civil service from a party which makes free and extensive use of leaked and stolen documents? Does my right hon. Friend accept that the only example of such bullying of which I have been made aware in recent days has been the Leader of the Opposition's bullying of his own Members of Parliament when they dare to step out of line?

The Deputy Prime Minister: I think that there is a degree of hypocrisy which of course I deplore, and I deplore nothing more than the document from the Labour party's Campaign group, which suggested--

Mr. Tony Banks: Come on!

The Deputy Prime Minister: I am coming on. That document suggested that Deputy Prime Minister's Question Time should be used to set the "sleaze agenda" and that, prior to my appearance before the Select Committee tomorrow,

"we should publish a dossier of 'Hessergate' scandals."

[Interruption.] I am only quoting from a Labour party document [Interruption.]

Madam Speaker: Order.

The Deputy Prime Minister: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

If the House wishes to understand the lengths to which the Labour party is prepared to go, I will quote further. The document also states:

"We should publish data on the 20 'sleaziest' quangos, i.e. those with the greatest number of Tory connected members."

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It goes on to say:

"These can then be presented as a 'random' selection."

As my hon. Friend the Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) pointed out, a degree of extreme humbug is represented by the Labour party.

Mr. Prescott: Can the Deputy Prime Minister confirm that his co-ordinated group of privatised company cheerleaders has been forced to cancel its first rehearsal owing to lack of interest? And is that any wonder, given that up to 100 of his own Members of Parliament are refusing to support the Government's European policy in their election addresses? Is it not the case that the Tory party is a party that cannot be led, with a leader who cannot lead?

The Deputy Prime Minister: I see that the soundbite philosophy of the leader of the Labour party has now--some months later--percolated down to the deputy leader. I thought that we were talking about the behaviour of civil servants. Perhaps we should bear in mind what was said by the hon. Member for Neath (Mr. Hain) about a civil servant, as reported in the 29 November issue of the Financial Times:

"I remind him that there is likely to be a change of government at the next general election and he must be careful that he does not become one of the Benefit Agency customers he is seeking to punish."

I have never seen such a flagrant threat issued by a parliamentary Opposition to a civil servant--that if he did not kowtow to what is suitable for the Labour party he could be sacked if it won a general election.

Juvenile Crime

5. Lady Olga Maitland: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister if he will make representations to the Minister responsible for deregulation in the Home Office in respect of the extent of the bureaucracy involved in dealing with juvenile crime.[6498]

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Roger Freeman): The focus of the deregulation initiative is on legislation and procedures which affect the activities of the commercial and voluntary sector. However, the Cabinet Office has a continuing responsibility to ensure the minimum burden of paperwork throughout the public service. We have informed the Home Office and my ministerial colleagues of my hon. Friend's concerns.

Lady Olga Maitland: I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. Is he aware of the genuine concern following publication of the Audit Commission's report, which refers to the intense frustration felt by the Crown Prosecution Service and the police when dealing with juvenile crime? Of 7 million crimes committed by 10 to 17-year-olds, only 3 per cent. come to court, and for those cases to be dealt with 40 pieces of paper must be processed by the police. Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is outrageous and that we must now try to introduce some common sense into the system?

Mr. Freeman: In normal circumstances, when a juvenile offender makes a guilty plea, only five forms are

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necessary, some of which are designed by the police for their own use. In other cases, there could be up to 10. I think that the Daily Mail article was exceptional and does not represent the realities of everyday life.

My hon. Friend raises an important point, however. The process in the courts needs to be as simple as possible. My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean), as Minister of State with responsibility for the police, are considering today the outcome of a review of paperwork on juvenile cases. I will convey my hon. Friend's concerns to them so that they can take them into account.

Bolton Magistrates Court

6. Mr. Thurnham: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he next expects to visit the magistrates court in Bolton to discuss the appointment of new magistrates; and if he will make a statement.[6499]

Mr. Freeman: In February this year, I appointed 18 persons to the Bolton bench. My advisory committee in Bolton is interviewing candidates for the list of recommendations for 1997.

Mr. Thurnham: When can Bolton expect to see progress on its much needed new magistrates courts? Can the private finance initiative really deliver, or would it not be better to go back to the old system, when we were promised that the new magistrates courts would be built?

Mr. Freeman: Many right hon. and hon. Members know the Bolton courthouse. It has an impressive facade, but not a very impressive interior. It is important that it should be rebuilt. I am glad to tell the hon. Gentleman that the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, has confirmed that the private finance initiative is appropriate for rebuilding the courthouse. I am pleased about that, and I shall follow progress with great interest.

Civil Servants (Numbers)

7. Sir David Knox: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister how many civil servants were employed by the Government and by Government agencies at the latest available date; and what was the figure in May 1979.[6501]

Mr. Willetts: When my hon. Friend asked me that question a year ago, the answer was that there were 506,000 civil servants--a reduction since 1979 of 31 per cent. There are now 487,000 civil servants--a reduction since 1979 of 34 per cent.

Sir David Knox: That is a very creditable achievement. Is my hon. Friend satisfied that there has been no deterioration in the service as a result of those reductions?

Mr. Willetts: I am satisfied that there has been no deterioration in the service. Indeed, in many sectors our rigorous measuring of performance quality has raised the standard of service and recently we celebrated the improvements at the chartermark ceremony.

Mr. Foulkes: Is it not therefore ironic that the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced in his Budget

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speech that there would be additional appointments in Customs and Excise, the Health and Safety Executive and other areas, which he described as a "spend to save" package? Does that not show that over the past 17 years cuts have resulted in catastrophe?

Mr. Willetts: The Budget's "spend to save" package was an important part of the Chancellor's programme for securing Government revenues, but it does not alter the fact that the Government are committed to reducing the size of the civil service while ensuring the highest possible standards of service to individual customers.

Mr. Congdon: Does my hon. Friend agree that the best way of ensuring that the taxpayer receives value for money for services provided by the Government is to test those services in the marketplace? Will he assure the House that the Government will press on full speed ahead to ensure that all aspects of Government are so tested and that there is less waste, therefore, in Government services?

Mr. Willetts: My hon. Friend is correct. Market testing is an important way of holding down civil service running costs. In a previous debate, the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Foster) announced that the Labour party would suspend all competing for quality initiatives--a spending pledge of £200 million per year, as those are the extra annual savings from our programme.

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