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Mr. Rod Richards (Clwyd, North-West) rose--
Mr. Brown: I do not know whether to give way to the hon. Member with the Union Jack tie or the hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Shaw).
Mr. Shaw: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is still Labour party policy, as written in its policy documents of the past year, that the convergence criteria must be applied flexibly? Is its policy still to fudge the convergence criteria or has it moved from its original policy document?
Mr. Brown: The word "flexible" is not used in our policy document. If the hon. Gentleman wants to read it out, let him please do so.
Mr. Shaw: My understanding is that--[Hon. Members: "Ah."] If the right hon. Gentleman reads "A New Economic Future for Britain" published by the Labour party in June 1995, he will see on page 23 the words:
- "Convergence must be based on improving levels of growth and employment, and not just on monetary objectives alone. That is why we have long argued that the convergence criteria must be applied flexibly."
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should be taken into account. The hon. Gentleman was trying to suggest that we intended to fudge the public spending guidelines. I had better deal with this now. We have always said, first, that we see substantial benefits in the principle. We have always said, secondly, that the decision should be made in the national economic interest. We have said, thirdly, that employment criteria--the real condition of the economy--have to be taken into account and, fourthly, that there must be a test of public opinion. That is a fair way of approaching the issue.
Mr. Richards: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Brown: I shall make some progress and then give way to some hon. Members. [Interruption.] The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury is shouting. Perhaps he will answer when he replies to the debate why he has been put up to answer the debate by the Chancellor when he said on the Frost programme only a few weeks ago, "I am a Euro-sceptic. I cannot support the principle of economic and monetary union." Why has he been put up to close the debate and give a position that is diametrically opposite to that of the Chancellor?
Mr. Richards: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Brown: I will give way once more and then I shall move forward.
Mr. Richards: Does the right hon. Gentleman have any objection in principle to a single European currency?
Mr. Brown: I have said exactly what is the case. We see substantial benefits in principle in a single currency, but the decision must be made in the national economic interest. We must take into account the advantages and disadvantages of being in, but also the advantages and disadvantages of being out. We must take a decision when we know the full economic information and can make an assessment of it. If the hon. Gentleman disagrees with me on that, he disagrees with the Prime Minister because that is the position that the Prime Minister laid out on Sunday.
I shall examine point by point the important decisions that will be made this weekend in Dublin and the Conservative party's position on them. The Chancellor did not deal with those important issues. I shall state the Labour party's position. We will show issue by issue that Conservative divisions are denying us the unity that is necessary, and therefore damaging the national interest on these matters.
The Chancellor tried to take comfort from what he said were divisions in the Labour party on a single currency. Let me give him a challenge. Let him do what the Labour party did and put his policy to his party membership, including its proposals on Europe, a commitment to the benefits that we see of a single currency, and the need to make the decision in the national interest and to consult the public. Let him see what the result is. Judging by his speech this afternoon, I doubt that the Chancellor will be able to guarantee a majority not just in his party but among his Back Benchers for his position, and perhaps not even a majority in the Cabinet. Who is divided on the issue of Europe?
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The Chancellor presented a theoretical case for being inside a single currency. The fact is that decisions are being made every week in Europe on these issues, and Conservative Members know that. The Chancellor concentrated, as he has done in our two previous exchanges, more on the decisions that have not been made, not yet been made or will be made later, for which he wants discretion from the House, than on the decisions that are being made.
In this two-day debate, we must face up to the decisions that have been made, say what is our view on the matter, give advice to the Government where that is necessary and see why the divisions on the Conservative Benches, which cannot be concealed, are preventing our national interest from being effectively represented.
The Chancellor says that there will be no final agreements at Dublin. It is true that there will be no legislative agreements until Amsterdam and that the Finance Ministers meet again tomorrow, but no one is in any doubt that important economic decisions--perhaps some of the most important decisions that Europe has made on economic matters--are being reached in ECOFIN and are to be put to the Council and to the summit on Sunday.
We know what newspapers across the continent are saying. French newspapers are reporting French Ministers as saying that all but two issues of detail have been agreed. Indeed, the Chancellor told the Select Committee on European Legislation, chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood), that political agreement is likely at the European Council on 13 and 14 December. The Leader of the House said that we had to have scrutiny in the Committee because political agreement was likely. The Chancellor, reporting back to the House last Tuesday, said that there were only two outstanding issues. We know that the Irish Prime Minister has said that 98 per cent. of the proposals on the economy are already agreed in outline form and that the formal agreement comes to be ratified in Dublin before the legislation is drawn up.
Try as he does to find common ground with his Back Benchers, the Chancellor has to deny the importance of all the decisions that are being made at the moment. I believe that debate is required on the details of those agreements, which are about to be made. I shall raise some of those issues, because parliamentary approval should be sought. The public need to know and to understand what is at stake. If they do not, because divisions in the Conservative party prevent that full national debate on the detailed issues from taking place, it will not be in the national interest.
It is important also to understand why the take note motion is not before the House this afternoon. We were told that the take note motion had to be dealt with before Dublin, yet suddenly last Thursday we were told that it was not necessary because political agreements would not be reached.
Mr. Marlow:
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Brown:
No, I am not giving way at the moment.
The truth is that political agreements are being reached. The position of the Government and that of Parliament should be known on these issues. What has changed in the
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Let us look at substantive issues. I have said where the Labour party stands. Our draft manifesto clearly states our position on the principle of a single currency and on the decisions that have to be made. The Chancellor raised the subject of the stability pact. He has reached agreement on all but two outstanding issues. He has agreed that there will be limits to deficits and that there is an agreed procedure for dealing with them. He has agreed that penalties will be there as a last resort and that fines will be paid to the European Commission. All that is agreed--Conservative Members should know that he has not opposed those proposals and that the common view in the Finance Council is that they are agreed.
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