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Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) made an excellent speech. It is a few years since I acted as his junior counsel in a murder case, which he conducted admirably. I agree with everything that he said. He was right to say that the motive of the hon. Member for Monklands, East (Mrs. Liddell) is good. I have great sympathy with her purpose, but I do not think that amendment No. 27 is the best means of achieving it.
The amendment is unnecessary. In Scotland, any conduct that causes or is likely to cause alarm, annoyance or upset will always be criminal, as the common law offence of breach of the peace. Watching someone, following that person, sending unwanted letters or gifts or attempting to contact the person in any way can give rise to a charge of breach of the peace if the target of such conduct is alarmed, annoyed or upset by it. No statutory offence of harassment is needed.
Like the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East, I would be concerned about the effect of the amendment on the structure of the criminal law in Scotland. The lower-level offence and the higher-level offence of putting people in fear of violence are part of a package for England and Wales. Importing the lower-level offence to Scotland would result in prosecutions for less serious conduct being brought under the statutory offence, but where more serious conduct was involved, prosecution would have to be brought under the common law. The lower-level offence would be triable summarily, and would involve a maximum penalty of six months' imprisonment.
In the debate on the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Bill, the Opposition agreed that the sentencing powers of the sheriff summary court should be increased to allow six months' imprisonment. The lower-level offence would fall squarely within the sheriffs' summary jurisdiction. Its introduction would therefore not result in harassments being taken more seriously, or in the imposition of tougher sentences.
The Bill does not make any changes in Scottish criminal law, because there is no need to do so. The existing law works. In Scotland, any conduct that causes alarm can be dealt with as a breach of the peace. Sentences are at the discretion of the court, but the maximum available penalties for breach of the peace are much greater than those proposed for a statutory offence. Nothing would be gained by creating such an offence.
Stalking is rightly taken very seriously. A circular was issued by the Crown Office to all procurators fiscal to re-emphasise the Lord Advocate's concern that cases of alleged stalking should be accorded priority. It said that careful consideration should be given to the court venue, so that cases are brought on indictment if appropriate, and that all offending behaviour should be libelled, not just the most recent incident.
Breach of the peace is a wide-ranging offence, and that has great advantages. It deals with the most minor offences, which would not warrant custodial sentences, but would also tackle the most serious examples of alarming conduct. Custodial sentences are imposed. In a three-year period between 1992 and 1994, 3,063 people received such sentences for breach of the peace. That shows that it is certainly not a trivial offence for which everyone gets just a slap on the wrist.
The hon. Lady raised the Durie case. I cannot agree with her suggestion that the existence of a statutory offence would have resulted in that case being treated more seriously. Summary proceedings were taken, which meant that the sheriff could impose up to three months' imprisonment. Once the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Bill is enacted, that will increase to six
18 Dec 1996 : Column 978
The hon. Member for Perth and Kinross (Ms Cunningham) raised an important point in the Committee stage of the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Bill about persons who had a history of harassment that was not shown adequately in a schedule of previous convictions. I told her that I would follow that up with the Lord Advocate. It should be possible to record such a conviction as a breach of the peace, with "harassment" added in brackets. I understand that there are precedents for that: "theft" can have "shoplifting" added in brackets after it, so that, if someone is continually involved in shoplifting, that will be picked up. It should be possible to note that harassment has been involved in breach of the peace offences so that appropriate disposals will be made in the event of a long history of offending.
I applaud the aim of the hon. Member for Monklands, East but in all respects the offence of breach of the peace is adequate to deal with stalking and harassment, and I must resist her amendment.
Mrs. Liddell:
I am sorry that the Minister does not see fit to accept the amendment. One of the great advantages of being a Member of the House is that we are enabled as taxpayers to get the benefit of distinguished legal advice free of charge. I greatly appreciate the remarks by the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell).
The Minister did not refer to the fact that there is a blurring between the use of civil and criminal remedies in the existing legislation. Without a clearly defined criminal offence, women and others who suffer from harassment will have to have recourse to the civil remedy. The cost of doing that and the crisis in civil legal aid could greatly inhibit opportunities to achieve redress. While I do not wish unnecessarily to delay the Committee, I should like the amendment to be put to the vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The Committee divided: Ayes 121, Noes 210.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
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Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow):
On a point of order, Mr. Morris. As it now appears that British personnel are involved in the siege in Lima, and following what Madam
18 Dec 1996 : Column 981
AYES
Adams, Mrs Irene
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Austin-Walker, John
Barnes, Harry
Beckett, Mrs Margaret
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Blair, Tony
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Burden, Richard
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coffey, Ms Ann
Connarty, Michael
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)
Cunningham, Dr John
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C)
Dewar, Donald
Dobson, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Eagle, Ms Angela
Ennis, Jeffrey
Etherington, Bill
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Foster, Derek
Foulkes, George
Fraser, John
Fyfe, Mrs Maria
Gapes, Mike
George, Bruce
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Ms Mildred
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Gunnell, John
Hall, Mike
Hardy, Peter
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Hoey, Kate
Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Hoyle, Doug
Hutton, John
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampst'd)
Jenkins, Brian D (SE Staffs)
Keen, Alan
Kennedy, Mrs Jane (Broadgreen)
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Livingstone, Ken
Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)
Loyden, Eddie
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, John
McLeish, Henry
McNamara, Kevin
McWilliam, John
Madden, Max
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Michael, Alun
Morgan, Rhodri
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Morris, John (Aberavon)
Mowlam, Ms Marjorie
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
Pope, Greg
Prentice, Mrs B (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Quin, Ms Joyce
Raynsford, Nick
Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooker, Jeff
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Sheldon, Robert
Short, Clare
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Chris (Islington S)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Spearing, Nigel
Squire, Ms R (Dunfermline W)
Strang, Dr Gavin
Straw, Jack
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Watson, Mike
Williams, Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Winnick, David
Wise, Mrs Audrey
Worthington, Tony
Mr. John Cummings and
Mr. Kevin Hughes.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Michael (Selby)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Alton, David
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Ashdown, Paddy
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Beggs, Roy
Beith, A J
Bellingham, Henry
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Peter
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Chidgey, David
Coe, Sebastian
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Tim
Elletson, Harold
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)
Foster, Don (Bath)
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Freeman, Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gallie, Phil
Gardiner, Sir George
Garel-Jones, Tristan
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodlad, Alastair
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Gummer, John
Hague, William
Hamilton, Sir Archibald
Hampson, Dr Keith
Harris, David
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, David
Hendry, Charles
Heseltine, Michael
Higgins, Sir Terence
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)
Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)
Hordern, Sir Peter
Howard, Michael
Howell, David (Guildf'd)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Johnston, Sir Russell
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Jones, Robert B (W Herts)
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
King, Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Kynoch, George
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamont, Norman
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Peter
Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Sir Nicholas
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, David
Maclennan, Robert
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Merchant, Piers
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Molyneaux, Sir James
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Tony
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Sir Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Pattie, Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Porter, David
Powell, William (Corby)
Redwood, John
Rendel, David
Richards, Rod
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Sir Wyn
Rowe, Andrew
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)
Sims, Sir Roger
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Speed, Sir Keith
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Sir John
Steel, Sir David
Steen, Anthony
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Streeter, Gary
Sweeney, Walter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thurnham, Peter
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Waldegrave, William
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Whitney, Ray
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Miss Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Willetts, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Yeo, Tim
Mr. Timothy Wood and
Mr. Bowen Wells.
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