House of Commons Hansard Debates for 13 Jan 1997 (pt 11)

Mr. John Hutton (Barrow and Furness): This is a useful new clause that would improve the Bill. It should, therefore, be supported by the House. I was sorry to hear the Minister caricature Opposition Members' arguments in support of it. Once again, he distorted--I am sure it was unintentional--the effect it would have.

The new clause does not state that serious violent criminals who have been sentenced to prison terms of four years or more must see a probation officer once every two months--which is what the Minister implied. That is not our intention. Furthermore, it is not fair to say that, by supporting an extension of the period of post-release supervision orders to violent criminals, Opposition Members are questioning the role of extended supervision orders for serious sexual offenders. We can have both extended periods of post-release supervision for serious violent criminals and longer periods of supervision after release for serious sexual offenders. We do not need to choose between the two forms of post-release supervision.

The Minister claimed that he would choose his words carefully, but those of us who study his comments will know that that would be out of character. Those who read

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and heard his comments at the weekend about beggars from Scotland will hope that he has had time to reflect upon them. He has not done the House a service by characterising our amendments as he did earlier. This is a serious debate and the Opposition will take no lectures from the right hon. Gentleman about the need to be serious about violent crime and criminals. We want to ensure that violent criminals are out of harm's way and spend the correct period in prison where they do not present a threat to the community and innocent law-abiding citizens. That is not the issue here.

I support strongly those parts of the Bill that concern post-release supervision orders. I presented legislation, before the Government published the Bill, that advocated longer periods of post-release supervision for serious sexual offenders. I am glad that that concept is now part of the Bill. We must consider carefully our strategy for the effective containment and management of serious violent criminals, and it is difficult to determine the Minister's objection to the new clause.

4.45 pm

It is hard to argue that the public will not be better protected by more extensive periods of post-release supervision. The extended periods about which we are talking in this context would fall within the mainstream of the terms and conditions in clause 13 which specifies the details of post-release supervision orders. We are trying not to weaken the concept of post-release supervision or to minimise the impact of supervision orders, but to extend and enhance the scope and range of the orders as far as they affect serious violent criminals.

Mr. Soley: The Minister mistakenly assumes that, because most ex-offenders get into trouble within a few months of their release from prison, greatest efforts must be made in that period. We do not argue with that, but the Minister forgets that emotional patterns at home may cause some ex-offenders to become violent again. That is why we need the flexibility of long-term supervision rather than hoping that we can get it over and done with in the first three months and then go home.

Mr. Hutton: My hon. Friend makes a good point. No two criminals or crimes are the same, so we must be as flexible as we can in developing the right solutions to the problems. My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to that part of the Minister's response to my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael). I suspect that, when he described our new clause, the Minister attempted to comply with the Tory central office brief and the campaign documents that argue that Labour is somehow soft on crime, but no rational person could interpret it--as the Minister tried to--as representing a soft position on crime. It is not.

My hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr. Tipping) said that, in discussing violent crime and how to deal with violent criminals, we agree that prison must play a central role. Violent criminals must spend an appropriate period in prison with 24-hour supervision. My hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley) also made a good point: as the vast majority of ex-offenders will be released into the community, we must ensure that there is a more effective way of supervising serious violent criminals.

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No one can guarantee that there will be no reoffending; we understand that point and we approach the debate from that perspective, but we are considering extending the Government's post-release supervision orders and the procedures, mechanisms, conditions and whatever else the orders contain to include serious violent criminals. I think that the Minister's response was partly an attempt to cram the new clause into his pre-packaged Tory central office brief by characterising it as another example of Labour's being soft on crime. That is not the case. The new clause represents a useful strengthening of the Bill rather than a diminution or watering down of its essential requirements, and I am surprised and saddened that the Minister will not support it.

Mr. Michael: I welcome the Minister's indication that he will accept amendment No. 2, which would bring about a general increase in the period of supervision after release from prison from 15 per cent. of the sentence to 25 per cent. He has, as he hoped, helped the debate. Indeed, the House of Commons is shown at its best when it is possible to have as sensible a debate in Committee as this one has been, and when a Minister, who has genuinely listened to the debate, has kept his promise to go away and think about the matter and come back with a positive response. I congratulate him on showing such mature judgment. Labour Members welcome that step forward.

The Minister's differentiation between those who commit sexual offences, particularly paedophiles, and those who commit offences of violence has some meaning and importance. We do not seek to suggest that the two categories should be rolled up together. There should be very different supervision and treatment in the two cases. I agree that there are differences, particularly so far as those who commit sexual offences on children are concerned. There is a great deal of evidence that they are some of the most devious of all offenders. There is evidence that some come out of prison expecting to commit further offences. The evidence shown on "The Cook Report" last year is of considerable anecdotal importance and the statistics are difficult to interpret, but I agree with the Minister that that puts the issue in a separate category of seriousness, a separate category which the criminal justice system has to be finely tuned to tackle.

Nevertheless, violent offences are also very serious. In the new clause, we are talking about people who commit a second serious violent offence. They may have committed several. One of the important points that comes from the statistics, and the facts revealed by my hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary over the Christmas holiday, is that so few such offences result in punishment by a court. A very small proportion result in the prison sentence to which the Minister referred. There is no difference between hon. Members on both sides of the House on the need for greater protection of the public, so I cannot understand why the Minister does not accept the new clause. I congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley) and for Sherwood (Mr. Tipping) on their thoughtful contributions to the debate.

The Minister said that there is a crucial point immediately after release when things can go wrong, and that that is the period of maximum risk. I do not disagree with that, but that is not the only period of risk. Let us

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consider an offender who comes out of prison, perhaps goes into temporary accommodation, and has to find permanent accommodation and a job, which may not be easy after release, to settle into a new life. A few weeks is not sufficient time in which to do everything that we can through the probation service to guarantee success in that rehabilitation. We cannot guarantee it, of course; it depends on choices by the individual as well as the quality of supervision, but it is important that the public services in which we invest, in the hope that they will reduce reoffending, are given the best possible chance of success. That is in the interest not just of the statistics of the probation service, but of those who, if the individuals reoffend, will be the victims. That is why this issue is so important.

The Minister talked about supervision after release as though it was an alternative to the effectiveness of prison sentences. The new clause does not deal with prison sentences. Nothing in it would diminish the sentence passed by the court on the offenders whom the new clause would affect. We are arguing that supervision should be given in addition. We do not seek to shorten the prison sentence. We seek to lengthen the period of supervision after release to increase the likelihood that public investment in prison will be fruitful by avoiding reoffending.

Is not an offender who has committed violent offences just the sort of case on which we should target action? If that is successful, it is likely that we can prevent not just one victim, but a number of victims, from being created by that individual's future offences--perhaps several violent offences before he is caught and brought before the courts again. I must underline the fact that violent criminals are now three times more likely to get away with it than they were in 1980, that violent offences recorded by the police went up by 137 per cent. between 1980 and 1995, and that convictions are down by 39 per cent.

Given those statistics, and knowing that some of those offences will have been committed by people who have previously been found guilty and punished by the court, including the punishment of prison, it is surely in the public interest in terms of the cost of punishing reoffenders, as well as protecting people who may become the victims of violent offences, that we target everything that we can on reducing the likelihood of reoffending. In the circumstances of today, we should take this new clause very seriously indeed.

It is a matter of regret that the Minister considers it enough that an offender who is released and commits another offence should receive a further and heavier sentence. My hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary revealed last year the difficulties and inconsistencies between different courts and the fact that it is not possible to guarantee that those who commit subsequent offences of violence will get a heavier sentence. Indeed, there are many cases in which reoffending led to a lighter rather than a heavier sentence. There is no difference between us in wanting consistency and progression in the sentence passed by the court, but it would be far better, once we have identified that somebody is a violent offender, to try to prevent their committing further offences once they have served their punishment.

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There are anecdotes of people who took a long time to stop offending, about people who suddenly realised, through a new relationship but also through things such as supervision, that what they were doing was childish and was damaging the lives of their victims. We heard recently, in the all-party group on penal affairs, a couple of offenders speaking about their experience. They said how they had been changed dramatically by the counselling and help that they had received. We need to increase the likelihood that somebody will decide not to continue to commit violent offences, and that they will begin to realise that they must take responsibility for their behaviour. That is the purpose of supervision.

Supervision is not a panacea--I do not pretend that it is a magic wand--but it can be effective. We want to increase its effectiveness. The Minister suggested that it becomes less likely that supervision will be required and less likely that young men will reoffend violently as they get older. Statistically, that is true. Statistically, there is a dropping off in the number who offend, but that does not happen in every case. There are some violent, nasty and vicious old men, as well as violent, nasty and vicious young men. There are people who will continue in a negative pattern of behaviour unless something happens to change them. Perhaps that change will come about in prison, particularly if the regime is positive and constructive, as well as involving the loss of liberty, but it is also likely to come through constructive intervention under supervision, either in the community, in the general sense, or after release. We believe that the Bill will be left too weak unless the new clause is accepted.