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Sir Ivan Lawrence (Burton): I have listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman. He has spoken a great deal of common sense, which I applaud, but is he prepared to make a commitment on behalf of his party to make the massive expenditure that would be required to bring the treatment of mentally ill offenders up to the standard that he seeks?
Mr. Michael: I am not sure how long ago it was that the hon. and learned Gentleman wandered into the Chamber but, despite his compliment on the common sense of my remarks, I have to say that I am surprised that he claims to have been paying close attention to my
13 Jan 1997 : Column 69
speech. I have already dealt explicitly with the matter he raises, twice in my opening speech and once in my current speech.
A great burden is placed on the public purse by, first, the failure properly to identify the need for psychiatric treatment and, secondly, the failure to give psychiatric treatment where it is needed, especially to those in prison. The hon. and learned Gentleman does not seem to understand the point, so I shall repeat it slowly for his benefit: it is costing us an enormous amount of money to be ineffective, and much of that cost could be saved by better liaison, by better targeting of activity and by ensuring that the work of the Prison Service and the health service is properly co-ordinated and that each does its job properly. The expenditure is not additional, but comes from dealing with the waste of money that results from the ineffective identification of those who need help and the ineffective way of providing that help.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Michael Howard)
rose--
Mr. Michael:
It is such a clear and simple point that it requires the Home Secretary to come to the defence of his junior Ministers.
Mr. Howard:
The junior Ministers are doing extremely well. What needs to be clarified is the novel approach to public expenditure commitments being advanced by the hon. Member. He knows perfectly well that the explanation--if that is the right word--that he has just given could be used to justify additional public spending on any subject under the sun. Has he cleared the words that he has just used with the shadow Chief Secretary or the shadow Chancellor?
Mr. Michael:
That intervention demonstrates that it is inadvisable for the Home Secretary to wander into the Chamber, pick up on one sentence and try to criticise the Opposition. If he had paid attention to the whole of my speech, he would have heard me quoting evidence from his own Department about the money to be saved by proper identification and targeting. It is a pity that he does not appear to have read the research that he publishes.
Mr. Soley:
Is not this the same Home Secretary who told the country that he will build a couple of dozen new prisons, without any regard to expense? It all falls on the taxpayer. That is another case of failure.
6.45 pm
Mr. Michael: This is also the Home Secretary who has managed to cut £700 million from the funding available to the victims of violent crime. I do not think that we need any lessons from the abacus of the Home Secretary--our point is that he is wasting money. The money available within the Home Office, the criminal justice system and the health service is being wasted. That waste is not necessary and could be avoided by the sort of measures proposed in the new clauses.
13 Jan 1997 : Column 70
I hope that the Home Secretary will take the trouble to read the whole of this debate in Hansard and not just a little bit of it; he will see how silly he looked making that intervention and asking a question that had already been adequately answered much earlier in the debate.
Mr. Howard:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Michael:
Of course. I am delighted that the Home Secretary is coming back--more, more.
Mr. Howard:
Will the hon. Gentleman now answer the very simple and specific question that I put to him? The formula that he used could be used to justify any increase in public spending on anything under the sun--has he cleared the words he used with the shadow Chancellor or the shadow Chief Secretary?
Mr. Michael:
I am sure that what I said could, with the twisted logic of the Conservative party, be used to justify anything--but not under the tight financial control and management that the Chancellor of an incoming Labour Government after the general election will apply, not only to spending commitments, but to the effective use of the resources that are currently available. That is the point. The Home Secretary stands condemned in this debate of not being willing to listen to advice from his own Department and his own research on how he and the Secretary of State for Health could use the resources that are currently available to them to reduce the burden of psychiatric care, to reduce offending and reoffending, to reduce the commitment to prison building and to reduce the massive expense resulting from the Home Secretary's mismanagement of the criminal justice system.
It is not good enough for the Government to try to avoid the issue by saying, "We'll tell the health and prison services to get together and that will bring about the end required by the Opposition." That is what the junior Minister said would happen and, according to the Home Secretary and his junior Minister, it does not involve extra resources. Telling the services to get on with it does not cost a penny more, but Ministers now argue that requiring them to get on with it in the way that we propose--by providing a framework that will make it easier for them to do so and that will allow money to be saved--will somehow cost more. It is just as well that the Home Secretary became a lawyer and not an accountant--he would have been drummed out of that profession long ago on the strength of the false accounting that he has tried to bring to bear this evening. The right hon. and learned Gentleman stands condemned out of his own mouth for a spurious and silly intervention.
It is not enough for the Home Secretary and the Minister to say that people involved in psychiatric services and in the Prison Service should co-ordinate their activities more effectively. It is not enough to say that provision should be made available voluntarily in the courts. It is not happening apace, as the Minister said. If it is happening apace, it is at a pace of a snail. That is not good enough.
We have tabled constructive new clauses that would tackle a significant problem and which I seriously expected the Minister to welcome, in view of the comments that he made in Committee, which I quoted back at him earlier. I regret the fact that he did not
13 Jan 1997 : Column 71
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--
The House divided: Ayes 246, Noes 297.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
13 Jan 1997 : Column 74
Mr. Jack Straw (Blackburn):
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Alton, David
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Ashdown, Paddy
Austin-Walker, John
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beith, A J
Benn, Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blair, Tony
Boateng, Paul
Bradley, Keith
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burden, Richard
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Canavan, Dennis
Cann, Jamie
Carlile, Alex (Montgomery)
Chidgey, David
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Corbett, Robin
Corston, Ms Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
Cummings, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C)
Davies, Chris (Littleborough)
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Denham, John
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Dobson, Frank
Donohoe, Brian H
Dowd, Jim
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eastham, Ken
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Evans, John (St Helens N)
Fatchett, Derek
Faulds, Andrew
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Derek
Foulkes, George
Fraser, John
Fyfe, Mrs Maria
Galbraith, Sam
Gapes, Mike
Garrett, John
George, Bruce
Gerrard, Neil
Gilbert, Dr John
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Ms Mildred
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Gunnell, John
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Hardy, Peter
Harman, Ms Harriet
Harvey, Nick
Henderson, Doug
Heppell, John
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Hoey, Kate
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Hood, Jimmy
Hoon, Geoffrey
Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Doug
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Robert (Ab'd'n N)
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampst'd)
Jackson, Mrs Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Janner, Greville
Jenkins, Brian D (SE Staffs)
Jones, Barry (Alyn & D'side)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Dr L (B'ham Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd SW)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Jowell, Ms Tessa
Kaufman, Gerald
Keen, Alan
Kennedy, Mrs Jane (Broadgreen)
Khabra, Piara S
Kirkwood, Archy
Lestor, Miss Joan (Eccles)
Lewis, Terry
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Litherland, Robert
Livingstone, Ken
Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loyden, Eddie
Lynne, Ms Liz
McAvoy, Thomas
McCartney, Ian (Makerf'ld)
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, John
McLeish, Henry
McNamara, Kevin
MacShane, Denis
McWilliam, John
Madden, Max
Maddock, Mrs Diana
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mandelson, Peter
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Martlew, Eric
Meacher, Michael
Meale, Alan
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Milburn, Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Morgan, Rhodri
Morley, Elliot
Morris, John (Aberavon)
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Paul
Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Orme, Stanley
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Powell, Sir Raymond (Ogmore)
Prentice, Mrs B (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, John
Primarolo, Ms Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Radice, Giles
Randall, Stuart
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Dr John
Rendel, David
Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rogers, Allan
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheldon, Robert
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Snape, Peter
Soley, Clive
Spearing, Nigel
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms R (Dunfermline W)
Steel, Sir David
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stott, Roger
Strang, Dr Gavin
Straw, Jack
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Thurnham, Peter
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis
Tyler, Paul
Vaz, Keith
Walker, Sir Harold
Walley, Ms Joan
Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Wareing, Robert N
Watson, Mike
Wicks, Malcolm
Wigley, Dafydd
Williams, Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Wise, Mrs Audrey
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Dr Tony
Ms Angela Eagle and
Mr. Joe Benton.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Aitken, Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Michael (Selby)
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, James
Ashby, David
Atkins, Robert
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Kenneth (Mole V)
Baker, Sir Nicholas (N Dorset)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Bendall, Vivian
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, John
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Boyson, Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Peter
Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Budgen, Nicholas
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, John (Luton N)
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Churchill, Mr
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Sir John
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Curry, David
Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Dykes, Hugh
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Sir Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fowler, Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Gallie, Phil
Garel-Jones, Tristan
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodlad, Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Gummer, John
Hague, William
Hamilton, Sir Archibald
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hanley, Jeremy
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, David
Hendry, Charles
Heseltine, Michael
Hicks, Sir Robert
Higgins, Sir Terence
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)
Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)
Horam, John
Hordern, Sir Peter
Howard, Michael
Howell, David (Guildf'd)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Douglas
Jack, Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Herts)
Jopling, Michael
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Key, Robert
King, Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Knox, Sir David
Kynoch, George
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamont, Norman
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Peter
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Merchant, Piers
Mills, Iain
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Molyneaux, Sir James
Monro, Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Moss, Malcolm
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Sir Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, John
Pattie, Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, David
Portillo, Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, John
Renton, Tim
Richards, Rod
Rifkind, Malcolm
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rowe, Andrew
Rumbold, Dame Angela
Sackville, Tom
Sainsbury, Sir Timothy
Scott, Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shephard, Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Sims, Sir Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Soames, Nicholas
Speed, Sir Keith
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Stanley, Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Townsend, Sir Cyril (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Waldegrave, William
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Miss Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Young, Sir George
Mr. Bowen Wells and
Mr. Roger Knapman.
'(1) Without prejudice to any other power in that regard, it shall be the duty of the Court of Appeal to consider and review sentencing practice and policy and from time to time to issue guidelines in respect thereof.
(2) Without prejudice to any rule of law, a court in passing sentence shall have regard to any relevant guideline issued under subsection (1) above.'.--[Mr. Straw.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
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