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Mr. Howard: The hon. Gentleman has just acknowledged that the court of appeal in Scotland has a power. The whole thrust of my argument was that the Court of Appeal in England already has the power to issue guidance; it does not need a specific statutory power to
13 Jan 1997 : Column 100
issue it. The argument is about whether it should be under a duty to do so and, for the reasons that I gave, I do not believe that it is necessary.
Mr. Straw: The Secretary of State is wrong. If he looks at the power given to the appeal court in Scotland under the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1995, to which the Secretary of State for Scotland refers in paragraph 8.19 of his White Paper, he will see that the power given to the court of appeal in Scotland is different from and, I understand, significantly wider than, the power that the Court of Appeal in England has taken unto itself. He cannot get away from the fact that the Court of Appeal in England, unlike the Scottish appeal court, has not exercised its powers as it should have.
The Secretary of State said that the Bill was about consistency and that it targeted specific offences. Apart from those affected by clause 1, which is about indeterminate life sentences, the Bill targets two offences from the whole criminal calendar: domestic burglary and trafficking in class A drugs. It targets those offences only where there has been a third or subsequent conviction. That is a tiny proportion of the totality of offences that come before magistrates courts or Crown courts for sentencing. Even if the Bill goes through unamended--which, as the Government keep amending it, remains a large question--it will scarcely touch the inconsistency and lack of progression of which the Secretary of State has made so much in the months since he published his crime White Paper. It will leave largely untouched the inconsistency and lack of progression to which I referred in the paper that I published in March and again this evening.
New clause 3 would put a duty on the Court of Appeal to issue sentencing guidance. It appears from the debate that that proposal has wide support in the House. I am sorry that the Government, for the most spurious and artificial reasons, have chosen to oppose it. They will rue the day, because they will be responsible for the lack of progression and consistency in sentencing and for the sort of appalling situation that my hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield mentioned. We wish to press new clause 3 to a vote.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--
The House divided: Ayes 240, Noes 283.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
13 Jan 1997 : Column 104
Mr. George Howarth:
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Mrs Irene
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Alton, David
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)
Ashdown, Paddy
Ashton, Joseph
Austin-Walker, John
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beith, A J
Bell, Stuart
Benn, Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Boateng, Paul
Bradley, Keith
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burden, Richard
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Canavan, Dennis
Cann, Jamie
Carlile, Alex (Montgomery)
Chidgey, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Corston, Ms Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
Cummings, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C)
Davies, Chris (Littleborough)
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Denham, John
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Dobson, Frank
Donohoe, Brian H
Dowd, Jim
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eastham, Ken
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Evans, John (St Helens N)
Fatchett, Derek
Faulds, Andrew
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foulkes, George
Fraser, John
Fyfe, Mrs Maria
Galbraith, Sam
Gapes, Mike
Garrett, John
George, Bruce
Gerrard, Neil
Gilbert, Dr John
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Ms Mildred
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Gunnell, John
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Hardy, Peter
Harman, Ms Harriet
Harvey, Nick
Henderson, Doug
Heppell, John
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Hoey, Kate
Hood, Jimmy
Hoon, Geoffrey
Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Doug
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Robert (Ab'd'n N)
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampst'd)
Jackson, Mrs Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Janner, Greville
Jenkins, Brian D (SE Staffs)
Jones, Barry (Alyn & D'side)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Dr L (B'ham Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd SW)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Jowell, Ms Tessa
Kaufman, Gerald
Keen, Alan
Kennedy, Mrs Jane (Broadgreen)
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
Kirkwood, Archy
Lestor, Miss Joan (Eccles)
Lewis, Terry
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Litherland, Robert
Livingstone, Ken
Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loyden, Eddie
Lynne, Ms Liz
McAvoy, Thomas
McCartney, Ian (Makerf'ld)
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, John
McKelvey, William
McLeish, Henry
McNamara, Kevin
MacShane, Denis
McWilliam, John
Madden, Max
Maddock, Mrs Diana
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Martlew, Eric
Meacher, Michael
Meale, Alan
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Milburn, Alan
Miller, Andrew
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Morgan, Rhodri
Morley, Elliot
Morris, John (Aberavon)
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Paul
Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Orme, Stanley
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Powell, Sir Raymond (Ogmore)
Prentice, Mrs B (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, John
Primarolo, Ms Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Randall, Stuart
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Dr John
Rendel, David
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rogers, Allan
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheldon, Robert
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Chris (Islington S)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Snape, Peter
Soley, Clive
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms R (Dunfermline W)
Steel, Sir David
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stott, Roger
Straw, Jack
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Thurnham, Peter
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Trickett, Jon
Tyler, Paul
Vaz, Keith
Walker, Sir Harold
Walley, Ms Joan
Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Wareing, Robert N
Watson, Mike
Wicks, Malcolm
Wigley, Dafydd
Williams, Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Winnick, David
Wise, Mrs Audrey
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Dr Tony
Mr. Dennis Turner and
Mr. David Clelland.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Aitken, Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Michael (Selby)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, James
Ashby, David
Atkins, Robert
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Kenneth (Mole V)
Baker, Sir Nicholas (N Dorset)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Bellingham, Henry
Bendall, Vivian
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, John
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Boyson, Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Budgen, Nicholas
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, John (Luton N)
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Churchill, Mr
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Sir John
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Curry, David
Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Dykes, Hugh
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Sir Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fowler, Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Gallie, Phil
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodlad, Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Gummer, John
Hague, William
Hamilton, Sir Archibald
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, David
Hendry, Charles
Heseltine, Michael
Hicks, Sir Robert
Higgins, Sir Terence
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)
Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)
Horam, John
Hordern, Sir Peter
Howard, Michael
Howell, David (Guildf'd)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Douglas
Jack, Michael
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Herts)
Jopling, Michael
Key, Robert
King, Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Knox, Sir David
Kynoch, George
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamont, Norman
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Peter
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Maginnis, Ken
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Merchant, Piers
Mills, Iain
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Monro, Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Moss, Malcolm
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Sir Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, John
Pattie, Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, David
Portillo, Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, John
Renton, Tim
Richards, Rod
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rowe, Andrew
Rumbold, Dame Angela
Sackville, Tom
Sainsbury, Sir Timothy
Scott, Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shephard, Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Sims, Sir Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)
Speed, Sir Keith
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Sir John
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Townsend, Sir Cyril (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Waldegrave, William
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Miss Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Young, Sir George
Mr. Bowen Wells and
Mr. Richard Ottaway.
'.The Powers of Criminal Courts Act 1973 shall be amended in Schedule 1A by adding the following paragraph--
"7.(1) This paragraph applies where a court proposing to make a probation order or a combination order is satisfied--
(a) that the offender is using a Class A drug;
(b) that his use caused or contributed to the offence in respect of which the order is proposed to be made; and
(c) that his use is such as may be susceptible to treatment.
(2) The court shall not form such an opinion as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) above unless it has obtained a pre-sentence report and a drugs test.
(3) The probation order or combination order shall, subject to sub-paragraph (6) below, include a requirement that the offender shall submit to drug testing and drug abuse treatment by or under the direction of a person having the necessary qualification or experience with a view to the reduction or elimination of the offender's drug use.
(4) The testing required by such an order and by sub-paragraph (2) above shall be by provision of a sample of urine for the purpose of ascertaining whether he has any drugs in his body.
(5) The treatment required by any such order shall be such one of the following kinds of treatment as may be specified in the order--
(a) treatment as a resident in such institution or place as may be specified in the order;
(b) treatment as a non-resident in or at such institution or place as may be so specified: or
(c) treatment by or under the direction of such person having the necessary qualifications or experience as may be so specified.
(6) A court shall not by virtue of this paragraph include in a probation or combination order a requirement that the offender shall submit to testing or treatment for his drug use unless it considers that such a requirement is appropriate in all the circumstances and it is satisfied that the arrangements have been made for the testing and treatment intended to be specified in the order.
(7) The court shall review the offender's progress four weeks after making the order, and thereafter at intervals of not more than four weeks and not more than four months.
(8) While the offender is under treatment as a resident in pursuance of a requirement of the probation or combination order, the probation officer responsible for his supervision
(9) Where the person by whom or under whose direction an offender is being treated for dependency is of the opinion that part of the treatment can be better or more conveniently given in or at an institution or place which--
(a) is not specified in the order; and
(b) is one in or at which the treatment of the offender will be given by or under the direction of a person having the necessary qualifications or experience.
he may make arrangements for him to be treated accordingly.
(10) Where any such arrangements as are mentioned in sub-paragraph (9) above are made for the treatment of an offender--
(a) the person by whom the arrangements are made shall give notice in writing to the probation officer responsible for the supervision of the offender, specifying the institutions or place in or at which the treatment is to be carried out; and
(b) the treatment provided for by the arrangements shall be deemed to be treatment to which he is required to submit in pursuance of the probation or combination order.".'.--[Mr. George Howarth.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
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