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5.30 pm
The Minister's logic seems remarkable. He accepts anecdotal evidence that, prior to the introduction of mandatory drug testing, offenders entered prison without a drug habit but left "typically, as heroin addicts"; now we have substantial evidence to demonstrate the disturbing shift to opiate use, he disputes it. The logic of that escapes me, so I hope that he will spend some time explaining it to the House.
There is evidence that, between 1 March and 30 September 1996, the percentage of random drug tests showing positive for opiates increased from 5.94 per
15 Jan 1997 : Column 354
A report in the journal Druglink published in June last year stated:
The Minister rightly pointed out that amphetamines, when not injected, are class B drugs and would therefore be excluded from the provisions proposed by new clause 7. I accept that, but he ought to take into account two facts. First, the new clause's purpose is to target the most problematic and addictive users, who tend to have opiate-based addictions that often involve other drug types. Typically, they may prefer to use cocktails of drugs on occasions. Secondly, the Minister's observation in no way weakens the argument for either new clause 7 or new clause 13. Indeed, if anything, it is an argument for increasing the powers in them.
Not enough thought has been put into the Government's opposition to our proposals. All we got from the Minister on Monday was a knee-jerk reaction: if the Opposition propose it, it must be wrong. The general public are sick and tired of the Government's negative approach and of important problems such as drug abuse in the prison system and elsewhere being used as a political football. When the Opposition come up with a good idea, the Government simply reject it, yet the public rightly want co-operation on such matters. If we make useful suggestions, the Government should simply take them on board.
If, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith said, there are problems with the new clauses, we can put them right during subsequent stages of the Bill, "But no, it is unnecessary," says the Minister. Even when we prove that action is necessary, he still does not relent. The new clauses may be imperfect. If there are drafting problems, we are willing to co-operate in putting them right in another place--but no. The only defect of new clauses 7 and 13 is that the Opposition rather than the Government have proposed them. That is a pathetic way of dealing with such problems and certainly not one of which I want to be part.
We hope that those who sent us to the House will note that, although we have tried to play a constructive role by suggesting improvements to the Bill, particularly where it affects those who are abusing drugs, the Government have not wanted to co-operate. I hope that, in future, even in the Government's dying days, we can co-operate on such important issues and make progress. On the evidence of Monday's response--I hope that the Minister is prepared to make a constructive response today--that will not happen. It is wrong to play politics with such issues and
15 Jan 1997 : Column 355
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Tom Sackville):
I must comment briefly on what has been said today and on Monday. The hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr. Soley) suggested that the approach to treatment in prisons is unco-ordinated, and the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (Mr. Hutton) said that very little is being done. I take issue with that. I said that there are between 50 and 60 schemes in operation in prisons. In fact, there are 59. They are by necessity very diverse. Drug treatment is relatively new to prisons, and many of the services being provided are themselves relatively new. One cannot, overnight, install drug treatment or rehabilitation schemes throughout the prison system as though they were something physical, such as central heating.
Mr. Sackville:
I shall not give way; we have spent a long time debating these new clauses.
The services need to be brought in, and the right ones need to be found. All sorts of methods are being used, from total abstinence--the Minnesota method as it is called--in a group of prisons, including Downview, right through to detoxification units and services run by Phoenix house. Those are very different services, and we shall see in time which are the most successful. It is my impression that all of them are having a considerable effect. They are being well used, and I am optimistic. We should not be so negative about what has been achieved through the efforts of my right hon. Friend the Minister who is in charge of prisons in getting such services up and running.
It has been suggested that additional powers are needed. I remind the House that a judge can order that a sentence be served in the community by a person who has been convicted so long as he or she follows a drug treatment programme. That programme may or may not include mandatory testing. The decision is essentially not up to the judge; it is up to the provider of the treatment to decide--the decision must be acceptable to the judge as a precondition--whether it contains mandatory drug testing. I suspect that most programmes would contain it.
The programme that I have held up as a model--the one in Plymouth, which is not the only model--does contain mandatory drug testing. If any person following that treatment does not fulfil all the programme's requirements, they are in breach and they are in gaol. That is the important thing. It is really up to the provider of the treatment to be the first person to indicate when such a breach has occurred.
I have great respect for the knowledge of the hon. Member for Hammersmith in these matters, given his long professional background and the fact that he has a well-known prison in his constituency. I accept that this place occasionally obliges even the most sensible and serious hon. Members to trade insults across the Floor, but if I did not I might take considerable personal offence at being told that I am complacent about drugs. I should remind the hon. Gentleman that I was co-founder of the all-party drug misuse committee and was its secretary for
15 Jan 1997 : Column 356
In the past year and a half, since taking on my present job, I have been round the country visiting every drug prevention initiative run by the Home Office. I have talked with most of the drug action team chairmen and I have been as far afield as Ankara and Bogota in pursuit of new agreements between this and other countries to address the drug problem. I seriously believe that, on this issue, I am perhaps one of the least complacent Members of Parliament.
Mr. Sackville:
If the hon. Gentleman does not mind I shall not give way.
For the reasons I have outlined, I am pleased to say that there has been good progress--although we need to go further--in providing drug treatment in prisons. It cannot all be done overnight. I am also pleased to say that I believe that all the powers are available to courts to issue conditional sentences, which are an excellent means of diversion from prison for those with a drug problem. Although the new clauses may represent a good opportunity to discuss this serious problem, I do not believe that they are necessary, and I am unable to commend them to the House.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--
The House divided: Ayes 253, Noes 296.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
15 Jan 1997 : Column 360
Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North):
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. I tabled the new clause with the support, after a short trawl, of 29 of my hon. Friends. I am committed to the powers and sovereignties of the House and, in general, I do not believe that any international involvements or commitments should stand in the way of the House doing what it believes to be right for this country in this country.
"The inmate population is well aware of the mechanics of urine testing and already there is an alarming degree of anecdotal evidence of drug mis-users favouring heroin (an opiate) over cannabis in certain situations, as it does not show up in tests so long after use."
The Minister suggests that he does not understand a number of our proposals, but he ought to understand that such a shift is taking place and that inmates understand what they are doing when they move from soft to hard drugs. In some respects, rightly or wrongly, they do so to evade capture.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Mrs Irene
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Ashdown, Paddy
Ashton, Joseph
Austin-Walker, John
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, Mrs Margaret
Beith, A J
Bell, Stuart
Benn, Tony
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blair, Tony
Blunkett, David
Bradley, Keith
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burden, Richard
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Canavan, Dennis
Chidgey, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Church, Ms Judith
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Ms Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cummings, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)
Cunningham, Dr John
Dafis, Cynog
Darling, Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C)
Davies, Chris (Littleborough)
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Denham, John
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Dobson, Frank
Donohoe, Brian H
Dowd, Jim
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eastham, Ken
Ennis, Jeff
Evans, John (St Helens N)
Fatchett, Derek
Faulds, Andrew
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foulkes, George
Fyfe, Mrs Maria
Galbraith, Sam
Gapes, Mike
Garrett, John
George, Bruce
Gerrard, Neil
Gilbert, Dr John
Godman, Dr Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Ms Mildred
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Gunnell, John
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Hardy, Peter
Harman, Ms Harriet
Henderson, Doug
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hoey, Kate
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Home Robertson, John
Hood, Jimmy
Hoon, Geoffrey
Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Doug
Hughes, Robert (Ab'd'n N)
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampst'd)
Jackson, Mrs Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Janner, Greville
Jenkins, Brian D (SE Staffs)
Johnston, Sir Russell
Jones, Barry (Alyn & D'side)
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Jones, Dr L (B'ham Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd SW)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Jowell, Ms Tessa
Kaufman, Gerald
Keen, Alan
Kennedy, Charles (Ross C & S)
Kennedy, Mrs Jane (Broadgreen)
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
Kirkwood, Archy
Lestor, Miss Joan (Eccles)
Lewis, Terry
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Litherland, Robert
Livingstone, Ken
Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)
Llwyd, Elfyn
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McFall, John
McKelvey, William
Mackinlay, Andrew
McLeish, Henry
Maclennan, Robert
McNamara, Kevin
MacShane, Denis
McWilliam, John
Maddock, Mrs Diana
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mandelson, Peter
Marek, Dr John
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Martin, Michael J (Springburn)
Martlew, Eric
Meacher, Michael
Meale, Alan
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Milburn, Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Morgan, Rhodri
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Morris, John (Aberavon)
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Paul
Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)
Oakes, Gordon
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Orme, Stanley
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Powell, Sir Raymond (Ogmore)
Prentice, Mrs B (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, Ms Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Radice, Giles
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Dr John
Rendel, David
Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rogers, Allan
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Robert
Short, Clare
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Chris (Islington S)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Spearing, Nigel
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms R (Dunfermline W)
Steel, Sir David
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stott, Roger
Strang, Dr Gavin
Straw, Jack
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Thurnham, Peter
Timms, Stephen
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis
Tyler, Paul
Vaz, Keith
Walker, Sir Harold
Wallace, James
Walley, Ms Joan
Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Wareing, Robert N
Watson, Mike
Wicks, Malcolm
Wigley, Dafydd
Williams, Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Wise, Mrs Audrey
Worthington, Tony
Wray, Jimmy
Young, David (Bolton SE)
Mr. Kevin Hughes and
Mr. Jon Owen Jones.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Aitken, Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Michael (Selby)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Atkins, Robert
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Sir Nicholas (N Dorset)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Beggs, Roy
Bellingham, Henry
Bendall, Vivian
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, John
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Boyson, Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Peter
Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Budgen, Nicholas
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Churchill, Mr
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Sir John
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Curry, David
Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Tim
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Sir Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)
Forth, Eric
Fowler, Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Gallie, Phil
Gardiner, Sir George
Garel-Jones, Tristan
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodlad, Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Gummer, John
Hague, William
Hamilton, Sir Archibald
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hanley, Jeremy
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, David
Hendry, Charles
Heseltine, Michael
Higgins, Sir Terence
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)
Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)
Horam, John
Hordern, Sir Peter
Howard, Michael
Howell, David (Guildf'd)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Douglas
Jack, Michael
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Herts)
Jopling, Michael
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Key, Robert
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Knox, Sir David
Kynoch, George
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamont, Norman
Lang, Ian
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lidington, David
Lilley, Peter
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Mayhew, Sir Patrick
Merchant, Piers
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Molyneaux, Sir James
Monro, Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Moss, Malcolm
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Sir Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, John
Pattie, Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, David
Portillo, Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, John
Renton, Tim
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Rifkind, Malcolm
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rowe, Andrew
Rumbold, Dame Angela
Ryder, Richard
Sackville, Tom
Scott, Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shephard, Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Sims, Sir Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Soames, Nicholas
Speed, Sir Keith
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John D (Strangf'd)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Townsend, Sir Cyril (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Waldegrave, William
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Wheeler, Sir John
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Miss Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Young, Sir George
Mr. Roger Knapman and
Mr. Sebastian Coe.
'--(1) Where a person of not less than 14 years of age is convicted of an imprisonable offence, the court by or before which he is convicted may make an order that he shall be subject to corporal punishment.
(2) The Secretary of State shall, by statutory instrument, subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament, make rules for the administration of the sentence of corporal punishment.'.--[Mr. Marlow.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
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