| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed): It is no part of the case against the reintroduction of corporal punishment to deny that some young people are recalcitrant, that their crimes against those more vulnerable and weaker than themselves are horrible and that the state has found it difficult to determine a satisfactory system to punish them or to teach them the error of their ways, but the facts do not support the contention that corporal punishment can be brought back to fill that gap.
The experience of the use of corporal punishment in this country was not the glowing success that is implied by the supporters of the new clause. Corporal punishment has proved ineffective in the fight against crime: when it was available for robbery with violence, before its abolition in 1948, three separate Government surveys found that offenders who underwent it committed more subsequent crimes than similar offenders who received other sentences.
Mr. Marlow:
The right hon. Gentleman is talking about a different age, with different circumstances, morality and expectations. If that is his argument against the reintroduction of corporal punishment, perhaps he would allow a trial period, to see whether it would work in today's circumstances.
Mr. Beith:
I shall go on in a moment to put the case why we should not reintroduce it at all, but I think that I may be permitted to draw on the experience of Britain in the post-war years if others can draw on the experience of the Isle of Man to try to make their point. The comparison that we must make is with the time when corporal punishment existed here.
Many of the young people whom some Conservative Members would consider suitable for corporal punishment have already been the subject of severe physical punishment or attack in the course of their upbringing.
Dame Jill Knight (Birmingham, Edgbaston):
Of course, the right hon. Gentleman is right about that, but the new clause would give the power only to the judge, who would have all the evidence at his fingertips. I have
15 Jan 1997 : Column 365
Mr. Beith:
The hon. Lady has a point. If the power were available to them, judges would be likely to use it very infrequently, because they would be persuaded by the arguments that I am advancing. I am arguing against the reintroduction of corporal punishment, as did the right hon. and learned Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg), who said that it would be the reintroduction of a system that has been unfashionable since the days of Palmerston; he delivered a scathing attack on the idea that it could properly be reincorporated into our system. In the inconceivable event--given the Government's stated opposition--that the House reintroduced corporal punishment, it would be used very little by the courts.
Reintroduction would contravene our international obligations under the European convention on human rights, as was clear from the 1978 Tyrer case and from our experience in relation to the Isle of Man. Those who have begun to try to persuade the Government that we should withdraw from the convention should have regard to the fact that we subscribe to it not simply to set a standard against which to judge what happens here, but to assist the upholding of human rights in countries throughout Europe. To withdraw from the convention would be to withdraw our support for the upholding of human rights in all respects, and that would be an extremely bad step for Britain to take.
Reintroduction would also create problems in relation to the medical professions and the law. A medical practitioner would have to be present when corporal punishment was administered, which would contravene the World Medical Association's 1975 Tokyo declaration, which laid down that doctors should not participate in, or be present at, any procedure during which
Mr. Hawksley:
When I tabled my amendment in 1984, the British Medical Association issued a press statement saying that it would not support it, but I had letters from doctors throughout the country saying that they were prepared to carry out their responsibilities if the law approved.
Mr. Beith:
I have said in another context that one can find some doctor somewhere to support any proposition. In a very different area of argument and policy, I have argued strongly against the idea that two doctors signing a form demonstrates that something is acceptable. That, however, is another subject.
The medical profession contains a wide variety of people, but there is a prevailing assumption in it, here and abroad, that the skills of medical science should not be used in support of degrading or cruel punishment.
15 Jan 1997 : Column 366
The true burden of the case is that corporal punishment is not effective: its record would in no way justify the sacrifice of principle and international obligation that would be involved in reintroducing it.
Mr. Marlow:
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way on that point?
Mr. Beith:
No, I am coming to the end of my remarks, because I am looking forward to hearing the official Labour party view, which I take to be strong opposition, although these days one cannot be entirely sure; I do not know precisely what methods are considered appropriate to sweep the squeegee merchants and graffiti artists off the streets, but I hope that that will soon become abundantly clear.
Mr. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth):
I should be grateful if the right hon. Gentleman, when commenting on the Labour party's policies, would refer to what Labour Members have said and not to the inaccurate phrases used in The Times. We are precise in what we say, and our opposition to this new clause is clear, so we do not need to make a meal of it.
Mr. Beith:
I hope that that opposition will take the form of a short and concise speech setting out in terms that the Labour party will oppose the amendment. Labour Members must be trying to keep a low profile if we have to rely on a mere intervention in my speech, whereas the Government will not be able to keep a low profile. I look forward to a stalwart rebuttal of the case for the new clause from the Government.
Mr. John Townend (Bridlington):
I want to take up Opposition Members' point that corporal punishment is not a deterrent. In recent years, there has been an explosion in crime and vandalism by young people. We are seeing a decay as a result of the ending of caning in schools.
I can give an interesting example of a headmaster of one of the large comprehensive schools in my constituency, who is now retired and whose school I visited seven or eight years ago. He was well known for his left-wing views--he is certainly not a member of the Conservative party--yet he said to me, "John, you would be surprised that, when it comes to the cane, I agree with your views. I have never used the cane very much. I have used it sparingly, but I believe that I have saved five or six boys from a life of crime, because I caned them at a critical stage in their school career when they were turning into bullies and little thugs." That is very true.
Ten or 15 years ago, it would have been inconceivable that 12, 14 or 15-year-olds would be capable of stealing not one but five, 10 or 15 cars. I cannot help but believe that it would be far better for them, and far more effective, if they were given six strokes of the cane the first time they were caught, rather than being warned or freed to steal more cars and to put their lives and those of many others at risk.
Mr. Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock):
The hon. Gentleman referred to the explosion of crime in the past 10 or 15 years. Has it occurred to him that one of the hallmarks of the Thatcher-Major period is the creation of a selfish society, in which avarice is at the forefront?
15 Jan 1997 : Column 367
Mr. Townend:
That is a load of nonsense. Young children who steal cars do not do so to use them. I own a hotel, and I can tell hon. Members that such young people play Monopoly. They go up to the hotel at the top of the hill and steal a blue car, and they bring it down and dump it at the hotel at the bottom of the hill and steal a red car. They steal cars because they think that it is a great game. I am convinced that if they were given six of the best they would not do that.
What is the ultimate deterrent in schools now that we do not use the cane? It is exclusion from school. Youngsters are excluded and end up on the streets. Is that not an invitation for them to become involved in crime and to commit vandalism? There has been an enormous increase in crime. We cannot possibly have enough places for so many young people. In my constituency, a place for one of those youngsters costs an astronomical £57,000 a year.
"cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment"
is used.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |