---

Dr. Godman: The new clause is designed to keep women out of Cornton Vale. In the light of what my hon. Friend said about his constituents, is he satisfied that those with suicidal tendencies receive adequate care and attention when they are incarcerated in Cornton Vale? Is he satisfied with the Government's anti-suicide measures?

Mr. McFall: My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. When I was in America last summer on home affairs business, I visited prisons on the east coast. In every prison I visited, I asked about its suicide policy and the number of suicides. Hardly any suicides had been recorded in any of those prisons over the past 10 or 15 years, because they had adopted appropriate suicide prevention policies. There is no doubt that appropriate measures were not in place at Cornton Vale--largely, I believe, because the Scottish Prison Service regarded it as something of a backwater and left it to get on with the job on its own. As a result, the proper procedures and measures were not implemented.

I have visited that prison twice in the past six months, most recently on 29 November. The governor, Kate Donegan, showed me around and I was impressed by the remedial work being undertaken there. However, she mentioned that many of the young women there are vulnerable and that it is hard for the prison authorities to

20 Jan 1997 : Column 666

deal with such problems. In his report on the prison, Her Majesty's chief inspector of prisons in Scotland, Mr. Clive Fairweather, said that suicides would not end at what he described as "the death-culture prison" until more appropriate measures were implemented. We have campaigned long and hard to make the Secretary of State understand and do something about the issue of women prisoners, especially those at Cornton Vale.

The new clause would strengthen bail provision in Scotland.

Dr. Godman: The chief inspector of prisons voiced similar concerns in his report on Greenock prison. The problem that we are debating is not confined to Cornton Vale; it affects prisons throughout Scotland. As Mr. Fairweather pointed out, the problem may be part of a rising tendency among young people in Scotland to commit suicide. Nevertheless, does my hon. Friend agree that much more needs to be done to protect vulnerable people?

Mr. McFall: I agree entirely. Only two years ago, a young constituent of mine, Gerry Deary, committed suicide in Greenock prison. The need to do something for young people is urgent. The chief inspector's reports on Cornton Vale, Greenock and Edinburgh prisons contain comments expressing professional discontent with the Government's handling of the situation in prisons. I accuse the Government of dereliction of duty in that respect.

Mr. Fairweather's report on Edinburgh prison, which came out on Friday, reveals an intolerable situation. He points out the current dangers within the prison and describes a flashpoint atmosphere which could erupt in the future. The Secretary of State and the Minister of State take a smug attitude; they sit on their hands and do nothing. The new clause would ensure that they address the problems at Cornton Vale and elsewhere and ensure that we have good order in our prisons.

Imposing good order is not some sort of do-gooding measure. Good order ensures that we do not have riots, that money is not needlessly spent clearing up behind them and that lives--whether those of prison officers or solicitors visiting prisons--are not put in danger. It is in the cause of good order that the new clause has been tabled.

Dr. Godman: This is an important issue and many people would benefit from the new clause if it were passed. Not long ago, in Greenock prison, two prisoners committed suicide within 25 hours of each other. Such tragedies have a distressing effect on prison officers, especially those directly involved--that is, those who discover the bodies. Suicides in prisons are terrible both for staff and for fellow prisoners.

Mr. McFall: Again, I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. It is a pity that the Secretary of State for Scotland, in whose constituency Cornton Vale is located, is not here to listen to the debate because he would learn from it. He sat in on earlier debates; yet he does not attend a debate which directly affects his own constituency. We should ask why that is. For the past year, we have been chasing the Secretary of State, asking him to address these issues and to acknowledge his responsibilities. We are debating

20 Jan 1997 : Column 667

a clause which relates specifically to his constituency, but he is not here to listen to our proposals. Opposition Members have visited prisons and spoken to members of the Scottish Prison Service because we have an interest in the issue. I want the Secretary of State to show the same degree of interest.

Mr. Wallace: The hon. Gentleman emphasised the difficulties at Cornton Vale and referred to last week's report on Edinburgh prison. Under the Bill, prisoners will have to earn days of remission. Does he agree that that will be much harder in prisons where there is overcrowding and no opportunity for rehabilitative work and that that will add to the tensions and pressure in Scotland's prisons, including Cornton Vale?

Mr. McFall: The hon. Gentleman is entirely correct. We all have long memories and we remember when the former Secretary of State, now Lord Younger of Prestwick, abolished parole. We remember the problems that that caused in Peterhead prison and elsewhere. We are dealing with a fragile situation.

Only this weekend, I received a communication from the Parole Board for Scotland telling me that the Government's intentions in respect of prison officers assessing prisoners for early release were a dangerous proposition. We want the Minister and the Secretary of State to understand that those with an interest, professional or otherwise, in the criminal justice system have the best interests of the prison service at heart, but they are not being heeded. I am putting forward the new clause with that in mind.

6.15 pm

The new clause would strengthen bail provision in Scotland to ensure that women are remanded in custody prior to trial or sentencing only when they pose a danger to public safety or where it is in the interests of justice to remand them. Those who are dangerous should be imprisoned, but those who pose no danger should not. That echoes the sentiments uttered by Mr. Clive Fairweather when he investigated Cornton Vale.

The new clause would also ensure that no woman was sentenced to detention or imprisonment until and unless the court had considered a full social inquiry report on her background and personal and domestic circumstances, including an assessment of any drugs dependency or mental health problem. It would also ensure that the court had considered all community-based disposals before making a decision to send a woman into custody.

I want to share with the Minister the feelings of my constituents, Jim and Anne Bollen, who tragically lost their daughter Angela in Cornton Vale. In the privacy and intimacy of their home, Mr. Bollen said to me, "Mr. McFall, she would not have committed suicide if there had been a proper community disposal available for her. She was no danger to society--she was a danger to herself and a problem to her family. If the courts had recognised that, they would have been assisting us. Instead"--here Mr. Bollen pointed to his three-year-old granddaughter--"my wife and I, at our age, have the responsibility for that child for the rest of our lives."

20 Jan 1997 : Column 668

In their eyes, the irresponsibility of the criminal justice system is answerable. The responsibility for that comes back solely, fairly and squarely on the Government. The Secretary of State cannot get out of that, despite his assertions to the contrary. Anyone who considers the macho approach to law and order displayed in the Secretary of State's article in The Sun today knows that the Government are responsible for conditions in prisons. We shall be unrelenting in our efforts to ensure that the Government take their responsibilities seriously. [Interruption.] The Secretary of State is now taking his seat--that is a welcome sight.

The new clause has been introduced to open up the debate on how women offenders should be dealt with in Scotland--in the light of 12 suicides or attempted suicides within 18 months at Cornton Vale and incidents at other prisons. We must also remember that the chief inspector of prisons pointed to the tinder box environment in our prisons. The first four suicides at Cornton Vale involved young women remanded prior to trial. Clive Fairweather made it clear in his report that many of the women remanded to Cornton Vale should not have been there, and need not have been there had bail hostels been available.

As I said earlier, I welcome the Secretary of State's announcement last Thursday of funding for Glasgow city council's bail proposals. In partnership with the Church of Scotland and the Scottish Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders, Glasgow will quickly bring 15 bail beds on stream. I also welcome the additional money being made available to develop a new 15-bed bail hostel in the west of Scotland. The reason for the pressure is that many of the young people remanded to Cornton Vale come from the west of Scotland. That issue may be worthy of further examination.

I note that the Secretary of State said last week that additional money is being provided to deal with the drug-related problems experienced by a very large proportion of the prison population. I know that an addiction worker is being provided at Cornton Vale, as well as drug workers in the prisons in Glasgow.

There is also the question why so many young women from the west of Scotland find themselves in Cornton Vale. Is there a difference in drugs policy between the west of Scotland and the east of Scotland? The research money available should be used to examine that issue.

---