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Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow): I do not doubt the hon. and learned Gentleman's good faith, but has he considered how the staff of Cornton Vale would react to the statement, from a man of his standing, that the prison should be closed? Those who are constituents of mine were extremely upset about it. I do not know whether they speak for the Prison Officers Association, but the hon. and learned Gentleman's statement was a terrible blow to morale. On reflection, does he not think that he should have spoken privately to Ministers, rather than publicly?
Mr. Campbell: I stand by the judgment that I made. I do not say that we should close the prison. I say that, if the prison's physical characteristics are inappropriate to the proper treatment of women in the criminal law system, we should consider creating a prison in which there are such physical characteristics as enable us to deal with them.
There is little doubt that a prison where there have been the tragic circumstances and the number of suicides that have occurred at Cornton Vale is not fulfilling its responsibility, however sincere and competent the staff are. We should be willing to consider root-and-branch alternatives.
Dr. Godman:
Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Mr. Campbell:
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will allow me to make progress, as I know that others wish to speak.
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We need a new regime for the treatment of women on remand and after conviction. We must acknowledge that the responses and requirements of women who find themselves in conflict with the criminal law, and the way in which they should be dealt with, are entirely different from those of men who find themselves in conflict with the criminal law. I make that judgment from my own professional experience, but it is supported by much of the recent evidence of the kind of people who have been driven to the terrible solution, if that is the right word to use in this context, of taking their own lives.
The matter is one of considerable importance. The fact that the new clause would discourage the placing of women in prison, either on remand or after conviction, in my judgment represents a proper approach which should commend itself to the House.
The hon. Member for Dumbarton pointed out that many women receive custodial sentences for fine default. We have seen anecdotal, front-page stories about women who were sent to prison because they did not have a television licence and could not afford to pay the fine levied upon them. Such people should not be in prison. If Ministers will not accept that argument, I am pretty sure that the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Hurd), who recently became president of the Prison Reform Trust, will sympathise with it.
Mr. Canavan:
I support new clause 9, which was moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall). Scotland has one of the highest prison populations per capita of any country in Europe. When I hear the Secretary of State speak, I sometimes get the impression that he wants to increase rather than decrease our prison population to such an extent that the construction of prisons may be the only growth industry in Scotland.
Cornton Vale has inevitably been mentioned. I do not have any up-to-date, detailed information about that prison, but many years ago it was in my constituency and I visited it occasionally. No prison is a nice place--I do not suppose that they are meant to be--but it is nonsense to believe the claptrap peddled by some elements of the media that prisoners are living in the lap of luxury. Loss of liberty is obviously the greatest deprivation experienced by anyone who serves a prison sentence.
Some 20 years ago, Cornton Vale was one of the most modern and most civilised prisons in Scotland. I have visited quite a few prisons since then, and some seem Victorian in their conditions. If the Government were serious about penal reform, they would try to make conditions in our prisons more humane, so that ex-prisoners would not harbour such anti-society and anti-establishment feelings.
Although Cornton Vale was, by Scottish standards, civilised and reasonably humane 20 years ago, I am alarmed by what has occurred in recent times. I think that
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Most of the young women imprisoned at Cornton Vale are very vulnerable--many are teenagers who were convicted of drug-related offences. For many, a custodial sentence at Cornton Vale was not the first option of the sheriff or the judge who sentenced them. As the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) and others have said, many initially received non-custodial sentences, such as fines, because the judiciary deemed those penalties most appropriate in the circumstances. However, default in the payment of fines led to their imprisonment in Cornton Vale.
New clause 9 seems to present a reasonable alternative. It places an obligation on the court to
I admit that, for males and females, prison sentences are appropriate and inevitable in some cases. For example, a custodial sentence is appropriate if someone commits a terrible crime of violence and poses a danger to society. I am convinced that the majority of prisoners at Cornton Vale could receive non-custodial sentences that would be more appropriate to their crimes--particularly when they represent no great danger to public safety. I hope that the Government will consider the new clause seriously and construct bail hostels and alternative forms of accommodation as the new clause suggests. Too many young women have died in Cornton Vale, and it is time for the Secretary of State to act in the interests of justice.
Mrs. Fyfe:
If the Minister rejects new clause 9, I imagine that he will do so on the ground that it relates only to women offenders. He may believe that it should be rejected on the ground of equal treatment. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall) said, statistics show that, over the years, far fewer women than men have committed serious crimes resulting in gaol sentences. The conduct of men in prison tends to be different from that of women: whereas women tend to turn violent feelings inwards and harm themselves, male prisoners may be more likely to act aggressively against other prisoners. For those reasons, we must look afresh at the treatment of women who are remanded in prison or who are serving prison sentences. That is why I support new clause 9.
Some hon. Members have said that by far the most common crime among women serving prison sentences is fine default. It may seem obvious, but women do not carry a gene for fine default; there is nothing in female DNA to make it more likely. It is a crime of poverty. Women are more likely to fall foul of the law in that way because they tend to have lower incomes than the male half of
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There is only one women's prison in Scotland, demonstrating how little need there is for prison places for women in Scotland. It is important, however, to consider the research carried out in the United Kingdom. I should be glad if research into the issue were conducted in Scotland. Research in England has shown that courts have taken a sterner view of women breaking the law than of men breaking the same law. I do not know whether that happens in Scottish courts, but we should find out. It certainly seems so, with so many women in prison simply for failing to pay a fine. That says something about the courts' attitude.
Other hon. Members have talked about the deaths of women on remand. That is a tragedy for the young women concerned and it is appalling for their families, who see them go to prison on remand for a relatively trivial offence--I believe that that was true of all the cases--with dreadful results that could not normally be foreseen.
Some of the deaths have been linked with drugs and suicidal tendencies. Rather than attempt to create a round-the-clock suicide watch in prison, we should ask whether people who are so prone to suicide should be in prison. Men or women, should they not be in the care of a mental hospital? Even in mental hospitals, it is difficult to ensure the safety of prisoners determined to commit suicide. If a mental hospital, with all its experience of such cases, finds it difficult, it is only to be expected that prison warders will find it even more difficult to tackle the situation.
I have already said that women are more likely to turn violence on themselves than on others. When I visited Cornton Vale some years ago with my hon. Friends the Members for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan) and for Falkirk, East (Mr. Connarty) and others some years ago, one of the warders said that they had had cases of women prisoners slashing their wrists with broken teacups, but the women did not attack others. That was typical conduct of women who were severely upset by being in prison. The loss of liberty is bound to affect anybody--man or woman--and is very difficult to deal with. Knowing that women prisoners might turn violence on themselves, we must consider how many of them should be dealt with in other ways rather than imprisonment.
"grant a bail application by a woman unless it is satisfied it is contrary to public safety or the interests of justice to do so."
It also places an obligation on the court not to pass a custodial sentence on a woman unless
"the court considers no other method of dealing with her is appropriate".
It emphasises bail and non-custodial sentences rather than detention and prison sentences.
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