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7.45 pm

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: I pay tribute to Governor Kate Donegan. I have visited Cornton Vale, as has the hon. Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Connarty), whom I accompanied. I have visited the prison a number of times since then, as has my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. I offer my condolences to the families of those who have died, and I am concerned about the number of suicides at Cornton Vale.

Last year we announced our intention to use the empty spaces in Cornton Vale for male young offenders so as to reduce overcrowding elsewhere. That accommodation has been segregated from the rest of the establishment by a fence, but because of the current pressures on Cornton

20 Jan 1997 : Column 686

Vale, the transfer of male young offenders has been postponed for the present to allow the governor and staff to concentrate on improving the women's regime.

Mr. Connarty: Does the Minister accept that in the inspector's report the staff said that more women than they expected were under observation? They said that one of the reasons for having prisoners on the upper floors, although they would have preferred them on the lower floors, was overcrowding. At the same time, the prison wing that has been mentioned was left empty for the transfer of young offenders.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: I have no doubt that the governor and the chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service will take into account the needs of women in Cornton Vale and the need to avoid overcrowding, especially among vulnerable young prisoners.

The hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mrs. Fyfe) spoke about suicidal prisoners being in mental hospitals. If a medical officer considers that a prisoner requires hospital treatment, that will be arranged. However, the problem is not that simple. Some suicidal prisoners do not exhibit symptoms which cause medical concern. The Scottish Prison Service suicide prevention strategy is being revised to help staff better identify prisoners who may be at risk and the service will draw on the recommendations of reports by Professor Gunn of the Institute of Psychiatry and Dr. Power of the university of Stirling.

Courts are currently required to obtain social inquiry reports in all cases where a custodial sentence has been imposed on offenders up to and including the age of 20. Those must also be obtained when persons of 21 or over are facing a sentence of imprisonment for the first time. Some 28,000 are requested each year by the courts, at an average cost of £211 per court.

The Government and the Scottish Prison Service have implemented a range of measures to tackle these issues. We have implemented or are implementing the vast majority of the recommendations in last year's report by Her Majesty's chief inspector of prisons. That move has introduced new arrangements for the induction of remand prisoners, has resulted in extra time out of cells and has increased access to education, physical training and other opportunities. Some outside agencies are now working in prisons, and remand prisoners now share a cell to encourage mutual support.

All those measures are designed to alleviate the problems that prisoners, and especially those on remand, might experience. It is by that route that action should be taken rather than by requiring courts to limit their considerations on the basis of gender. New clause 9 would fetter unduly the discretion of the courts, which already take into account the factors identified in the new clause in reaching decisions on bail. In taking those decisions, the courts must have regard to public safety and the administration of justice, and the range of penalties available for the breaching of bail orders reflects that.

The courts also have responsibility for dealing with bail offenders. We have heard Opposition proposals for tough action on bail bandits. The courts at present have the discretion available to them to refuse bail where the accused has a record of bail abuse. By limiting that discretion to instances where public safety or the interests

20 Jan 1997 : Column 687

of justice apply, the courts may not have the same freedom to remand women in custody where they consider such action to be most appropriate.

The hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall) asked about the discretion of the courts. A court must grant bail unless, in the exercise of its discretionary right of refusal, it is of the opinion that, in looking to the public interest and securing the ends of justice, there is good reason why bail should not be granted. This approach applies to both men and women. I must tell the hon. Member for Dundee, East that bail beds are provided in Aberdeen and Dundee, and we expect a new hostel to open in July this year. [Interruption.] I can tell the hon. Member for Dundee, East that I do not doubt for one moment that the interests of Dundee are important.

As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced last week, the Government have extended the bail information scheme to include the stipendiary magistrates courts in Glasgow. We have offered £50,000 to convert properties operated by the Church of Scotland and the Scottish Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders for use as bail accommodation. Officials are discussing with Glasgow city council financial support for the addition of 15 bail bed spaces. The availability of those spaces will assist the courts in releasing an accused person on bail where the only reason for refusing bail is that the accused does not have a normal place of domicile. The hon. Member for Dundee, East will be glad to hear that similar proposals are being discussed with Dundee city council.

Much has been written recently about the link between suicides and drugs. While those who may have been taking drugs or who have life style breakdowns are susceptible to suicide, there is a range of possible explanations for the recent suicides--including depression and a lack of hope for the future on the part of the inmates. I can tell the hon. Member for Dundee, East that mandatory drug testing is providing a clearer picture of drug taking and has provided a clearer message that drug taking will not be tolerated. It is helping staff to target support measures on those prisoners who need help in tackling their drug problems. Some women prisoners have said that being placed on a testing programme has helped them resist the pressures to take drugs.

The hon. Member for Dundee, East referred to some of the measures that were announced recently, and I will not go through them again. I can tell the hon. Member for Maryhill that an independent researcher is undertaking a six-month study to obtain detailed information on the extent and type of drug and alcohol misuse among women prisoners before and after conviction. This will help to provide information to assist the targeting of resources for the future.

More funding is being made available, in addition to the extra staffing provided last year, to address the drug-related problems experienced by a large proportion of the prison population at Cornton Vale. A further addictions worker post has been approved, together with additional psychiatric sessions. Proposals from the governor to increase access to drug reduction programmes in prison and to recruit additional registered mental nurses have been approved. All of those measures will expand the programme that is in operation. Tackling drugs in prison is not the only part of the equation and, to be

20 Jan 1997 : Column 688

effective, there must be adequate through care on release. We are discussing with local authority and voluntary agencies what steps may be taken to ensure that this is available, and such discussions are going on in Glasgow.

Any suicide is a tragedy, and although the intention behind the new clause is worthy of support, we do not believe that the proposed details are appropriate for the reason that I have given--that they involve a statutory discrimination in favour of women. That runs contrary to the principle that has informed Government policy for many years--that persons should not be discriminated against because of their sex.

Mr. McFall: This useful debate has done the House proud--particularly as the Secretary of State and the Government have been strangely silent on the issue for far too long. If the debate has assisted the process of doing something regarding the position of women prisoners in Scotland, that is all the better. I thank the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) for his remarks in what has been a good debate. We are unconvinced by the Government's position. There is a gaping hole in the criminal justice system regarding women which has to be rectified, and we shall press the amendment to a vote.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--

The House divided: Ayes 291, Noes 292.

Division No. 44 [7.54 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Mrs Irene
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Alton, David
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Ashdown, Paddy
Ashton, Joseph
Austin-Walker, John
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, Mrs Margaret
Bell, Stuart
Benn, Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blair, Tony
Blunkett, David
Boateng, Paul
Boyes, Roland
Bradley, Keith
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burden, Richard
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Canavan, Dennis
Cann, Jamie
Chisholm, Malcolm
Church, Ms Judith
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Ms Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
Cummings, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)
Cunningham, Dr John
Cunningham, Ms R (Perth Kinross)
Dafis, Cynog
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C)
Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Denham, John
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Dobson, Frank
Donohoe, Brian H
Dowd, Jim
Dunnachie, Jimmy
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eastham, Ken
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Evans, John (St Helens N)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Fatchett, Derek
Faulds, Andrew
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Derek
Foulkes, George
Fraser, John
Fyfe, Mrs Maria
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Garrett, John
George, Bruce
Gerrard, Neil
Gilbert, Dr John
Godman, Dr Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Ms Mildred
Graham, Thomas
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Gunnell, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Hardy, Peter
Harman, Ms Harriet
Harvey, Nick
Hattersley, Roy
Henderson, Doug
Heppell, John
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Hoey, Kate
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Home Robertson, John
Hood, Jimmy
Hoon, Geoffrey
Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Doug
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Robert (Ab'd'n N)
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampst'd)
Jackson, Mrs Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Janner, Greville
Jenkins, Brian D (SE Staffs)
Jones, Barry (Alyn & D'side)
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Dr L (B'ham Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd SW)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Jowell, Ms Tessa
Kaufman, Gerald
Keen, Alan
Kennedy, Charles (Ross C & S)
Kennedy, Mrs Jane (Broadgreen)
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
Kirkwood, Archy
Lestor, Miss Joan (Eccles)
Lewis, Terry
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Litherland, Robert
Livingstone, Ken
Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loyden, Eddie
Lynne, Ms Liz
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCartney, Ian (Makerf'ld)
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, John
Mackinlay, Andrew
McLeish, Henry
Maclennan, Robert
McMaster, Gordon
McNamara, Kevin
MacShane, Denis
McWilliam, John
Madden, Max
Maddock, Mrs Diana
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mandelson, Peter
Marek, Dr John
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Meacher, Michael
Meale, Alan
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Milburn, Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Morgan, Rhodri
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Alfred (Wy'nshawe)
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Morris, John (Aberavon)
Mowlam, Ms Marjorie
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Paul
Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)
Oakes, Gordon
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Brien, William (Normanton)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Orme, Stanley
Parry, Robert
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Powell, Sir Raymond (Ogmore)
Prentice, Mrs B (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, Ms Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Radice, Giles
Randall, Stuart
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Dr John
Rendel, David
Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rogers, Allan
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Salmond, Alex
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Robert
Shore, Peter
Short, Clare
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Chris (Islington S)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Snape, Peter
Soley, Clive
Spearing, Nigel
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms R (Dunfermline W)
Steel, Sir David
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stott, Roger
Strang, Dr Gavin
Straw, Jack
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Thurnham, Peter
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis
Tyler, Paul
Walker, Sir Harold
Wallace, James
Walley, Ms Joan
Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Wareing, Robert N
Watson, Mike
Welsh, Andrew
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Wise, Mrs Audrey
Worthington, Tony
Wray, Jimmy
Wright, Dr Tony
Young, David (Bolton SE)

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Greg Pope and
Ms Angela Eagle.

NOES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Aitken, Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Michael (Selby)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Atkins, Robert
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Sir Nicholas (N Dorset)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Bellingham, Henry
Bendall, Vivian
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, John
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowis, John
Boyson, Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Peter
Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, John (Luton N)
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Churchill, Mr
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Sir John
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Curry, David
Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dicks, Terry
Dorrell, Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Sir Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fowler, Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Gardiner, Sir George
Garel-Jones, Tristan
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodlad, Alastair
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Gummer, John
Hague, William
Hamilton, Sir Archibald
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hanley, Jeremy
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, David
Hendry, Charles
Heseltine, Michael
Hicks, Sir Robert
Higgins, Sir Terence
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)
Horam, John
Hordern, Sir Peter
Howard, Michael
Howell, David (Guildf'd)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Douglas
Jack, Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Herts)
Jopling, Michael
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Key, Robert
King, Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Knox, Sir David
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lang, Ian
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Peter
Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Maitland, Lady Olga
Major, John
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Mellor, David
Merchant, Piers
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Molyneaux, Sir James
Monro, Sir Hector
Moss, Malcolm
Needham, Richard
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Sir Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, John
Pattie, Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, David
Portillo, Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, John
Renton, Tim
Richards, Rod
Rifkind, Malcolm
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rumbold, Dame Angela
Ryder, Richard
Sackville, Tom
Sainsbury, Sir Timothy
Scott, Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shephard, Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Sims, Sir Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Soames, Nicholas
Speed, Sir Keith
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Townsend, Sir Cyril (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Waldegrave, William
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Wheeler, Sir John
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Miss Ann
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Young, Sir George

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Roger Knapman and
Mr. Sebastian Coe.

Question accordingly negatived.

20 Jan 1997 : Column 692

Clause 1

Imprisonment for life on further conviction for certain offences

Mr. Wallace: I beg to move amendment No. 243, in page 2, line 16, leave out from 'that' to 'may' in line 20 and insert

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