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Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: In answer to the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace), I believe that the number of appeals made by Law Officers against too lenient sentences is in the region of 15.

Amendments Nos. 243 and 244 concern the circumstances in which courts may exercise their discretion not to impose an automatic life sentence or a minimum of seven years imprisonment for a third or subsequent conviction for class A drug trafficking offences. The amendments would seriously undermine the purpose of the Bill, which is to protect the public from violent or serious sex offenders and recidivist drug dealers. They would replace the "exceptional circumstances" test in relation to the court's discretion not to impose an automatic life or minimum mandatory sentence with a different and much wider test. The exceptional circumstances test would allow the courts to impose a different sentence only where unusual circumstances exist.

The purpose of clauses 1 and 2 is that life sentences or custodial sentences of seven years or more should be imposed as a matter of course in the generality of the cases; otherwise, they will not have the desired protective and deterrent effect. The tests proposed in the amendments go far beyond that by, for example, allowing the courts to impose a different sentence if they think that it would be anomalous to impose a minimum sentence. They might allow a judge not to impose a minimum sentence in a case in which he would otherwise have been minded to impose a different penalty. That would make nonsense of clauses 1 and 2.

Clause 1 deals with criminals who have already been convicted of serious offences such as rape, or of robbery with a firearm, but go on to commit a further such offence. Such criminals have shown by the nature of their offences and by their inability to desist that they are a threat to public safety. Only automatic life sentences can deal satisfactorily with the risks that they pose to society.

Clause 2 deals with drug dealers convicted of a third or further class A drug trafficking offence. We believe that not to impose a severe determinate sentence on such persons would not provide the protection that the wider community deserves from such people.

Mr. Wallace: If I follow the Minister's argument, will he say whether he thinks that I am offering a fair summation of it? Judges have immense experience and are paid substantial salaries to exercise their judicial discretion. As a result of the Government's proposals, they may have to impose sentences that are harsher than they believe to be necessary in the circumstances. Does the Minister believe that that is justice?

8.30 pm

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: I believe that the public deserve the additional protections that automatic life sentences would give in the case of repeat offenders. That would be particularly relevant in cases such as that of Maguire, who would have been caught by an automatic life sentence the second time he offended.

Mr. McFall: I should like to add to the question just posed by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland about

20 Jan 1997 : Column 697

judicial discretion. The Minister has cited the exercise of such discretion in exceptional circumstances, but has not allowed for it in the case of mandatory sentences. Is he saying that he does not trust judges and that there have been problems in the past as a result of their decisions?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: I am not saying that. We believe that the clauses should necessarily provide a discretion for a different sentences to be imposed when there are exceptional circumstances. I am content to leave that discretion to the courts. I have no doubt that the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland could argue eloquently in court if he believed that exceptional circumstances existed. In my view, the right balance has been struck and to go further would undermine the effectiveness of clauses 1 and 2.

By singling out particular circumstances, we do not wish to fetter the courts' discretion to decide what are exceptional circumstances and how they should be weighed. I therefore ask the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland to seek leave to withdraw his amendment.

Mr. Wallace: The Minister's reply comes as no real surprise to me, as we are all aware that the Government are going through a window-dressing exercise in trying to appear tough on crime. I do not believe that the proposals will have the effect in practice that the Minister pleads for them.

I have already said that, if a prisoner who has been released on licence under supervision ought to be recalled, then he should be recalled. Equally, if there is an omission to recall him on the basis that he is likely to reoffend, it is equally likely that he will be released by the Parole Board with the consent of the Secretary of State and then reoffend. I do not believe that the Government's proposals would provide the type of safety for the public that the Minister says that they will deliver.

The Minister has completely overlooked the fact that discretion is already exercised by judges to impose a life sentence where they think that there is a strong likelihood that a person will reoffend due to his dangerous proclivities. The Minister has outlined circumstances in which judges and the courts will be obliged to mete out sentences harsher than those that judges' long judicial experience lead them to believe it would be in the interests of justice to deliver.

The Bill may give the Government a few cheap headlines in the weeks running up to the election, but I fear that the consequences in the medium term--and possibly in the short term--will be a series of high-profile cases which will show that what has been done by the Government is ludicrous. Sentences will be imposed that bear no proportion to the crime committed. That will bring our criminal law into disrepute and will undermine the thrust to tackle crime. I therefore insist on pressing the amendment to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made:--

The House divided: Ayes 24, Noes 278.

Division No. 45 [8.33 pm

AYES

Ashdown, Paddy
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Canavan, Dennis
Cunningham, Ms R (Perth Kinross)
Dafis, Cynog
Davies, Chris (Littleborough)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Harvey, Nick
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Kennedy, Charles (Ross C & S)
Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lynne, Ms Liz
Maclennan, Robert
Maddock, Mrs Diana
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Rendel, David
Salmond, Alex
Skinner, Dennis
Steel, Sir David
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thurnham, Peter
Tyler, Paul
Welsh, Andrew

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Archy Kirkwood and
Mr. James Wallace.

NOES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Aitken, Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Michael (Selby)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Atkins, Robert
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Sir Nicholas (N Dorset)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Bellingham, Henry
Bendall, Vivian
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, John
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowis, John
Boyson, Sir Rhodes
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Peter
Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, John (Luton N)
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Sir John
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Curry, David
Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dicks, Terry
Dorrell, Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Sir Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fowler, Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Gardiner, Sir George
Garel-Jones, Tristan
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodlad, Alastair
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Gummer, John
Hague, William
Hamilton, Sir Archibald
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hanley, Jeremy
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, David
Hendry, Charles
Heseltine, Michael
Hicks, Sir Robert
Higgins, Sir Terence
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)
Horam, John
Hordern, Sir Peter
Howard, Michael
Howell, David (Guildf'd)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Herts)
Jopling, Michael
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Key, Robert
King, Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Knox, Sir David
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lidington, David
Lilley, Peter
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Maitland, Lady Olga
Major, John
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Mellor, David
Merchant, Piers
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Monro, Sir Hector
Moss, Malcolm
Needham, Richard
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Sir Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, John
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, David
Portillo, Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Redwood, John
Renton, Tim
Richards, Rod
Rifkind, Malcolm
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rumbold, Dame Angela
Ryder, Richard
Sackville, Tom
Sainsbury, Sir Timothy
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shephard, Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Sims, Sir Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)
Speed, Sir Keith
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Sir John
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Townsend, Sir Cyril (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Trend, Michael
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Waldegrave, William
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Wheeler, Sir John
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Miss Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Young, Sir George

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Roger Knapman and
Mr. Gyles Brandreth.

Question accordingly negatived.

20 Jan 1997 : Column 700

Amendment proposed: No. 148, in page 2, line 17, after 'circumstances', insert

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