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11.25 pm

Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale): I am grateful for the chance to contribute briefly to the debate.

I do not believe that the dispute at the heart of the measures necessarily extends across the Floor of the House. All of us who represent farming constituencies know only too well the unprecedented damage and turmoil that the beef industry has suffered over the past 10 months. Our dispute is with our European partners and, to a degree, with the European Commission.

I do not see myself as one of the most extreme Euro-sceptic Conservative Members. I have always tried to be measured in the comments that I make about Europe. The debate is the best opportunity that we have had for a long time to put on the record the fact that the farmers, the beef producers, of the United Kingdom--it is commendable that so many of our colleagues from Northern Ireland are present, and I shall be brief because I am sure that some of them want to contribute--have made great sacrifices over the BSE problem in the past 10 months, or even eight or nine years. It is high time that the rest of Europe recognised the sacrifice that has been made.

Mrs. Margaret Ewing (Moray): And America.

Mr. Greenway: And America--the hon. Lady is right.

When the cull that we are debating tonight is completed, it will mean that 1.2 million animals will have been slaughtered. I cannot claim that there is a shred of scientific support for the slaughter of any one of them. They have all been slaughtered for political reasons because the European Union decided, in its infinite stupidity, to impose a ban on British beef as a result of the statements made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health.

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The European Union made a gross misjudgment. It judged that, because BSE might be seen as a problem confined to Britain, if British beef were banned, it would reassure consumers throughout the rest of continental Europe. Of course, the ban had the opposite effect. Every housewife or consumer, not just in Europe, but throughout the world, has concluded that if--it is still a big if--there is the prospect of humans contracting a brain disease as a result of eating beef, they should not buy it. All cases of Creuztfeldt-Jakob brain disease throughout the world cannot have occurred as a result of British beef. I do not believe that the link has been proved. The decision to ban British beef reinforced in the minds of consumers throughout Europe the idea that all beef may be harmful. For that reason, beef consumption throughout Europe has slumped. It is to the credit of our meat industry, our farmers and our consumers that consumption of beef in Britain has not fallen to the levels seen in other countries. That, combined with the massive financial support that the Government have given to the industry, means that we still have a beef industry for the future.

The European issue is exacerbated by an outrageously hypocritical draft report that was recently published by the European Parliament--the so-called Ortega report--and we need to examine carefully two issues relating to that. We understand that the report has been highly critical of the British Government's response to the BSE crisis and that there is also some criticism of the European Commission. In fairness to the Government--I remember many of the debates we had in the late 1980s, when I was first elected to Parliament--I must point out that they have been working one step at a time. Facts were not known and scientific advice emerged generally. We are now much clearer on what needs to be done to ensure that the beef on consumers' plates is safe.

With the benefit of all that hindsight, however, what has the European Parliament recommended should be done to protect consumers throughout mainland Europe? Precisely nothing--none of the measures that we have implemented to ensure that our beef is the safest in the world has been recommended by the Parliament for implementation in the rest of Europe. We are well on the way, not only to eradicating BSE from British herd, but to ensuring that, once eradicated, BSE does not return and that British beef on consumers' plates is the safest in the world, but I am gravely concerned about whether we can say the same about the rest of Europe.

It is acceptable to suggest that the incidence of BSE in Europe is not as high as it is in Britain, but I cannot understand why the rest of Europe continues to turn its back on the prudent measures that we have introduced in respect of specified bovine offals, meat and bonemeal. I am worried that, because of that, we shall see more evidence of BSE on the continent and that the worst of all worlds could befall our farmers--that we have the cull in order to get the European ban and the worldwide ban lifted, but that in two, three or four year's time, other countries will impose a ban on European beef because of the increase of the incidence of BSE in other member states.

I hope that I am wrong, but I want my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister to take a message to the European Councils dealing with this matter: that we are prepared to ask our farmers to continue to make this sacrifice, but that we expect the other member states to deliver the goods--not only to lift the ban, but to

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implement the necessary measures throughout Europe. It is no good saying that Britain will be free of BSE unless we can say that Europe is free of BSE.

Several hon. Members rose--

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse): Order. In the 20 minutes available for the remainder of the debate, four hon. Members hope to catch my eye. I hope that they will all be successful.

11.33 pm

Mr. William Ross (East Londonderry): In the light of what you have said, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall be as brief as is humanly possible.

The hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) drew attention to the turmoil in the beef industry and on farms during the past year or so. We in this House would be remiss if we forgot all the other people who have lost their jobs or whose businesses have gone to the wall. We must not forget the tremendous misery that this whole affair has caused to the ordinary men and women who depended on a week's wages from the beef industry in one form or another. While I have every sympathy with the farmers, we should also remember the misery that has been suffered by others.

The statutory instruments deal with Great Britain, but the Minister will know that the corresponding orders affecting Northern Ireland passed into law about two weeks ago, even though they were laid on the same day, 18 December. I am curious to know why the orders for the whole of the United Kingdom were not dealt with on one day. Perhaps that has to do with our different legislation; but this is a UK-wide problem, so we should make every effort to deal with it uniformly.

Every farmer in the country will welcome this further step towards clearing up the BSE crisis in the UK, and will hope that the certified herds scheme will be acceptable to Europe. I trust that we will rapidly be able to clear up the remaining stock that may have come into contact with BSE. I am, however, still worried about the suckler herds. What protection will be offered to producers' claims for suckler cow premiums, for example? If those herds are decimated, the farmers concerned could lose out. Furthermore, could such producers be exempt from the quota usage rules for long enough to enable them to get back into full production? That may apply more to closed than to general herds, but the problem needs attention.

Has the problem of flagged holdings, as opposed to flagged animals, as yet been resolved? The matter urgently needs sorting out, but I am not sure that much progress has been made so far.

The Minister will understand that farmers' losses will be compounded by the changes in the green pound. I am told that another change in its value could be here in 50 days' time; it will cause more mayhem and another fall in the price of beef. If the price fell correspondingly in the butchers' shops and supermarkets, we might not mind so much.

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Farmers are concerned when they hear advice to the effect that they must finish their animals a bit earlier. The plain truth is that Northern Ireland has long been engaged, with Government encouragement at every level, in producing large, heavy animals for the continental market. Any man who has ever reared cattle knows perfectly well that cattle first grow their bony frames and then put on the beef after that. It is impossible to finish a large-framed beast before it reaches a certain maturity. It is therefore ridiculous to believe that an animal bred to finish at 450 kg can be finished at 350 kg--it is nonsensical, but intervention weights keep dropping, and I should like to know what the Minister intends to do about that, to relieve the producers.

11.38 pm

Sir Jim Spicer (West Dorset): My right hon. and learned Friend the Minister and his team will know only too well that, over the past year, it has been Dorset in particular and the west country in general that have been hardest hit by BSE. I wonder whether, six months ago, the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) would have liked to have been a Minister telling the farmers in north Cornwall or Dorset, "We have this enormous backlog of animals to deal with under the 30-months scheme, but of course I want to talk to you today about the continuing problem we will face once that is done."

In the past two debates in the House, I have quoted my county chairman, John Hoskin, who has been hit harder than almost anyone. Had the hon. Member for North Cornwall tried to approach John Hoskin not just in May, June or July but in August, September or October with such a farcical suggestion, I know exactly what the response would have been, and the hon. Gentleman would have caught the next train back to North Cornwall and probably moved on beyond there as well.

Over the past six months, my right hon. Friends have dealt with the most massive task that we have ever had. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made one point clear: this is the greatest crisis that we have faced since the last war, and we have dealt with it. People may criticise, but no one else could have done more than we have to deal with more than a million cattle in the time that we have done it. Let there be no more hypocrisy from the Opposition on that point.

We have lived up to our side of the bargain, and we are now doing what we ultimately promised, at the behest of the National Farmers Union and the Country Landowners Association. They have all reluctantly come to accept that we must go that little extra mile. We are going that little extra mile; we shall complete our part of the Florence deal, and the ball will then be firmly in the court of our European partners.

There remains a big question. There was a time when I had stars in my eyes about the European Community and thought that, if it said that it would do something, it would do it. I am not so sure now. The ball is, however, in its court and, if it does not live up to the undertakings that it has given, we must face up to the fact that we must go it alone. We must make our own dispositions, not just for one or two years but up to 2001 and beyond.

When we debated the matter on 15 May with the hon. Member for North Cornwall and others, I said that, within those dispositions, if our European partners did not lift the

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ban, we would have to consider taking action against them and say that, unless the beef that they produced was up to the standard and quality of ours and had the same safeguards, we would have to think about banning their beef and building up a fortress Britain in terms of beef. That is the last thing that we want, but the ball is in their court and they must play their part.

By 2001, BSE will be eradicated in this country, but will it be eradicated in Europe? As my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) said, we doubt that very much, so we must ensure that we have access to those world markets.

I thank my right hon. and Learned Friend the Minister and all those who played their part in bringing us to this point where we can do our final part. If the others do not live up to their side of the bargain, I simply say, "Let it be on their heads, not on ours."

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