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Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury): Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could expand what he said earlier. He said that
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the vast majority of acts of abuse were not committed by convicted criminals, and that they could make up only a small part of the total. Many hon. Members agree that we need to use the Pigot committee recommendations. Does the hon. Gentleman think that a register should include information on those against whom there are strong grounds for suspecting child abuse--perhaps even grounds that have been tested under civil conditions in court? Is the hon. Gentleman arguing for the broadening of the register?
Mr. Michael: I am certainly not asking for that at this stage. The Government left that as an open question for the future, and there is enough to be done at this time in targeting convicted abusers. There is considerable evidence that many convicted people have a string of offences over a long time. Therefore, some of the most dangerous abusers are in that category.
I should make the point--which my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport will deal with again later in the debate--that other registers exist in education and social work. We should be clear about how the Bill's provisions will fit in with those registers. The hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) was right to highlight the problem, but the Bill deals with specific, targeted activity. We have enough problems in dealing with that activity without now attempting to deal with the issue too generally. I believe that the Government came to that conclusion--although the Minister will correct me if I am wrong--and I think that it is the right conclusion.
Mr. Maclean:
The hon. Gentleman's summary of the Government's position is about right. Trying to impose a registration requirement on people whom the police suspect are apt to abuse would be a very radical measure. How would people know that they were supposed to register if the police have not told them that they are suspect of activities? I do not know how we could force people to register if they are merely suspected of abuse.
However, I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury that, if police and their local intelligence systems have information on individuals, they will maintain that information. There is no requirement for an individual to register. If the person seeks a job, however, the police may share their information--there are proposals on access to criminal records--with relevant child protection agencies.
Mr. Michael:
The Minister's remarks confirm the Government's view--which is shared by hon. Members on both sides of the House--on how far we should proceed now, and leaves open the possibility of linking and developing information in records in future, when more experience has been gained.
In the past, the Minister and I have stressed the need for international co-operation on child sex offences overseas. It is much easier to agree with him now that he has accepted extra-territorial jurisdiction, at least in some cases. I ask him to consider--as hon. Members asked in earlier interventions--provision for registration of offences abroad, at least in the clearest and most flagrant cases. Such provision would be consistent with his earlier remarks, especially if it were part of a wider protocol and of the development of agreements between nations on how to deal with that international problem.
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I am sure that all hon. Members would agree that few crimes are more appalling and devastating than sexual crimes committed by adults against young children. The Labour party has clearly and often expressed its position on the issue, and, in June 1996, published "Protecting our Children". As they are already on the record, I shall not go into the document's details now.
However, the document stresses the point that measures must be complementary if we are to deal adequately with the problem. It is vital to ensure that our procedures for tackling child sexual abuse are as effective as possible, and that the Bill's objectives are efficient and well-targeted. In that context, we look forward to considering the Bill's details in Committee.
In the debate on the Crime (Sentences) Bill, we underlined the importance of the effectiveness and availability--in prison and in the community--of treatment programmes for convicted and unconvicted sex offenders.
There are some problems in the Bill's details on targeting, as some of those who should be covered by the registration requirements may be missed out. There are also problems in ensuring that the Bill's provisions do not apply accidentally to those who are not a danger to others, and particularly not a danger to children. The Minister made it clear that, so far as possible, his intention is to hit the right targets, not unintended targets. I accept that assurance, and offer to work with him to help to fine-tune the Bill. I believe that we can make constructive proposals towards a well-targeted measure.
I should point out the dangers of the Bill's current phraseology in respect of notification of address. It requires the address of a person's
A person may have a flat or home in one place, but spend part of the week with a partner, who may have young children. That could cause difficulties, as the Minister well understands. The Bill does not cover those circumstances. There is no requirement for offenders to inform the police where they spend the most significant part of their time.
Commercial travellers, business people and lorry drivers travel a great deal, and there have been examples of that being relevant to offending behaviour. I hope that the Minister will take that point on board, and that we will be able to amend the Bill in Committee.
There are also problems in that the public will assume that the police have certain information once the register becomes law. It is important that the register should not only aid the investigation of new sex crimes but act as a deterrent to those on the register and assist agencies that offer treatment programmes.
I do not know whether the Minister heard a former offender being interviewed on radio last Thursday night. That individual acknowledged that he would always be a danger. He was reminiscent of a former alcoholic when
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Some organisations have expressed concern about the Bill in respect of cautions. As a caution requires the admission of guilt, some of those fears may be misplaced. Perhaps the Bill should be amended in Committee, however, as a lack of clarity could produce unintended consequences.
Finally, it is important in this and other legislation not only to be sure that information is available to employers who are considering taking someone on--whether they are public bodies, in the voluntary sector or private organisations involved in activities such as child minding--but to provide for clear checks on employers. The Government did not accept that proposal in respect of the private security industry, where there is clear evidence of offenders running companies. However, it becomes even more important in respect of the care of children.
Mr. David Mellor (Putney):
I echo the welcome given to the Bill by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) from the Labour Front Bench. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister on bringing it forward. The approach of those on both Front Benches to the Bill is a model of how Parliament should operate. On some subjects, deep and often embittered partisanship is inevitable. On others, hon. Members do the House no disservice by working together, pooling our experiences and talking sensibly about an issue that is beyond party politics but is of fundamental importance.
I shall not waste precious time saying how much I agree with the Bill when so many others want to speak. However, although I do not want to appear to be making the best the enemy of the good, there are ways in which the Bill could be improved. I see it in a John the Baptist role, pointing the way towards further changes that may become inevitable, following the thinking behind the Bill. I entirely accept that it will be a major achievement to get the Bill on the statute book before the election. I do not want any of my thoughts to impede that progress, but it is important to look ahead to work which the next Parliament will have to do on this important topic.
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The Bill applies to all sex offenders, but to avoid exceeding reasonable time, so that everyone who wishes to participate in the debate has the chance to, I shall confine my remarks to paedophiles.
I should like to return to the point that I raised with the Minister. It is in no sense a carping point. I appreciated what he said about the nature of paedophilia. It is important that we understand it. Many hon. Members have extensive experience of working in the courts, including the hon. Member--I could almost call him my hon. Friend without embarrassment--for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson), who has had many years at the Bar, and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton(Sir I. Lawrence). I have also had extensive experience working in courts and spent a number of years discharging the Home Secretary's discretion, under his superintendence, on the release of mentally disordered offenders and others. That experience brought me face to face rather starkly with the problems of paedophiles.
Many middle-aged and elderly men who now sit in armchairs tut-tutting about the crime wave and the behaviour of the younger generation were, in their day, teddy boys, mods or rockers, and engaged in all manner of anti-social and often criminal activity. However, people grow out of such behaviour. The teenage burglar, the teenager who takes and drives away, or the teenage serial offender, often grows out of all that--and thank goodness they do, because, if certain people continued offending in adult life at the rate at which they offended in their teens, the situation would be pretty sad.
"sole or main residence in the United Kingdom".
Why is it limited to that? People in a number of professions have more than one important address--the office of Member of Parliament springs to mind. Most hon. Members spend a considerable part of each week at two different addresses. Many people who work in London are in similar circumstances, as are people who live in one part of the country and work in another. Should that not be covered in the Bill?
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