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Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda): I listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman, and it seems to me that he is generalising from specific situations. I was brought up in a coal-mining valley and was the youngest of 12 children. I went to a grammar school, but my older siblings were not able to do so because my parents could not afford it. The standards in the grammar school were such that many people went on to Oxford and Cambridge, became highly qualified and moved up in the professions.
Many years later, in the same community, with the same people and with the same dedication to education, the comprehensive schools send the same number of children, or even more, to Oxford and Cambridge. I venture to suggest that it is not the type of school or its structure that counts, but parental background, the willingness of people to get involved and the dedication of teachers. If financial support and help is provided, kids will achieve, whatever the system.
Sir Teddy Taylor:
I am encouraged by what the hon. Gentleman said about the schools in his constituency. It is lucky to have him as its Member of Parliament, and
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If people are in an up-market group, their children can escape, because they can pay for transport to take their children outside the area and thus take advantage of the choices that the Government have provided. But think of the people who simply cannot escape.
My kids went to council schools in Southend-on-Sea. They were lucky: they went on to grammar schools. They had the advantage of a social mix. It should be remembered that the secondary schools chosen by those living in up-market areas do not have such a social mix. One of the greatest tragedies that I encountered in Glasgow was the existence of what could almost be called ghettos in areas with council housing. That is an appalling situation. People cannot escape from such ghettos, either because of council housing--which, sadly, prevents them from escaping--or because of the lack of educational ability of some kind, in regard to which society is desperately unfair. People may wonder why things are going wrong in so many areas; it is because, unfortunately, a large and increasing number of people are imprisoned in such ghettos, and we must fight that.
I have spoken for far too long, and I apologise, but Labour Members should think of the children in those ghetto areas. Are we offering them any hope? Labour Members may say, "We will spend a little more, and will organise some special inquiry." The plain fact is, however, that they know that--because of housing policy and the ghettos to which I have referred--they will achieve nothing unless they can give such people some kind of hope. I suggest that giving some of those children the opportunity to go to grammar school gives them hope.
Mr. Don Foster:
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I know that he is anxious to finish his speech, to which I have listened with considerable interest.
The hon. Gentleman clearly cares passionately about this issue, but I am confused about one point. He has referred to "inner-city ghetto areas" from which the majority of children are not able to move to the leafy suburbs and the so-called better schools. How can the removal of the 25 per cent. most able pupils from a school in a ghetto area benefit the remaining 75 per cent.? I simply do not see how the 75 per cent. can benefit.
Sir Teddy Taylor:
I am sorry that I have spoken for so long. Perhaps I should not have given way, but I believe that we should think about this important issue.
Such action can help enormously. There is no hope for anyone if everyone is imprisoned in a school that is in a ghetto. If 25 per cent., 10 per cent. or even 5 per cent. of kids can escape, entirely new circumstances are created: at least some will be able to escape to grammar
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The hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster) seems to think that he is an expert. I am sure that he is, because he wears glasses and looks very wise. If he knows a family living in Tower Hamlets, what will he say to that family? Will he say, "We are going to give you 10 per cent. more money, and we shall try to give you an extra teacher"? He must know that, unless he can provide some of those people with the opportunity of escape, they will continue to have a ghetto mentality.
I care about these things, because I came from a poor home and went to a school in which many people were in the position that I have described. As I said, when I started out in politics, Labour Members seem to care about things and believe in them, but, tragically, some of the things in which they believe are extremely stupid and damaging for the working class. The working class suffers, and no one gains.
I am sorry that I have spoken for so long, but I hope that I have persuaded one or two hon. Members to think again, and to realise that what they propose is wrong--that it is bad for the working class, and bad for overall achievement.
Ms Hodge:
I hope that the hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) will sit through my speech. We listened to his, which was delivered with passion and, I think, sincerity, and I trust that he will listen to Opposition arguments against selection.
I believe that there is a purpose behind tonight's debate which unites the political parties. We all want to raise educational standards for the children of today, who will become the community and the work force of tomorrow; and we all want to provide opportunity. Where we divide is on the steps that we think are most appropriate to achieve that objective. That is where I part from the hon. Member for Southend, East, but I hope that he will listen to my argument.
The Government believe that the route to raising standards is through selection. That is where we fundamentally disagree. We are not driven by good intentions alone. We are driven by pragmatic good sense; the Government's approach is driven by dogma and ideology. Because it is so driven, it will fail, even to provide opportunity for more children.
The Bill misses another opportunity to raise educational standards. I feel sorry for the Secretary of State for Education and Employment. Her professional background is that of a teacher. She spent a large part of her professional working life promoting comprehensive education and closing grammar schools. When she was a member of Norfolk county council, nine grammar schools were closed--the rest of the grammar schools in Norfolk--and she played an active role in the campaign to close the King Edward VII grammar school there. When she became Secretary of State, she spoke to local teachers at a meeting of the National Union of Teachers. When teachers asked her about selection, she said that nothing would change while she was in charge.
I do not believe that the Secretary of State ever wanted or meant to change the Government's stance on selection. It was forced on her by the Prime Minister. I feel sorry for her, because when she reflects on her period of office
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The education issue for Britain is not, as the hon. Member for Southend, East suggested, our failure to achieve high standards for the best pupils; the issue was set out not only by Labour Members, but by members of a Conservative education authority from which the Government Front Bench team sought to distance itself. We had more sense from the authority in its submissions to the Government on both the White Paper and the Bill than we have had from all Ministers during debates in Committee. The authority said:
Mr. Win Griffiths (Bridgend):
May I draw my hon. Friend's attention to the fact--this must be something of a paradox in the light of what the Government seem to want to do--that it was their own Prime Minister who, a year or two ago, said that we did very well by more able pupils, but that we were failing 80 per cent. of those who attended schools? That is what we must tackle, not the question of the able.
Ms Hodge:
I completely agree. I say to the hon. Member for Southend, East that my children are in inner-city comprehensive schools and are achieving well. They would whatever the structure and irrespective of whether there was selection. When we talk about introducing selection, I remain primarily concerned not for them, because their background and my support as a parent more readily ensures their future, but for precisely those children for whom the hon. Member for Southend, East has expressed concern. Will selection help to deal with that long tale of under-achievement that is often associated with class? No; nor will it increase parental choice, improve schools or raise standards. We know that from information in the league tables that are produced by the Government from GCSE results. I hope that Conservative Members will listen carefully to this. We must learn from those league tables about the impact of selection at 11 so that we may understand what could happen if we introduced selection, as proposed, at the age of five.
"England's long-standing problem is the long tale of under-achievement with the less able."
We need to pose the question: will selection at 11, or indeed at five, help us to raise standards, not for those who succeed anyway, but for all children, including those working-class children about whom the hon. Member for Southend, East feels so passionately?
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