---

Mr. Kilfoyle: I was taken by the contribution by the hon. Member for Crosby (Sir M. Thornton), who has a long and honourable tradition of support for the concept of a general teaching council. I know that he has genuine differences with us about the difficulties that we would face in trying to implement a general teaching council, but when he was asked about ways in which the obstacles that he foresees could be circumvented, he was unsure. I think that he said that he did not know and that that would be a matter for some deliberation. If I understood him

28 Jan 1997 : Column 170

correctly, he also said that it would take at least three years for the notion of the general teaching council to evolve into its correct role.

The hon. Member for Crosby made an important point about the need for unanimity among the different professional groups involved. With his long and illustrious involvement in education, he will recognise that one of the more quixotic elements of education policy making is the need to consider the many and various differences of opinion--many of which would be expressed about a proposed general teaching council. Sometimes one has to have a bit of vision to supersede the various legitimate rivalries within the profession. The hon. Gentleman also made the essential point, with which I am sure we all agree, that a general teaching council is a sine qua non for raising the morale and status of teachers. That point was reinforced by broad support from the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Forman), who also made a telling comment about the need to remove the issue from party political squabble. I shall return to that point.

I do not wish to touch on the political sensitivities of Wales, which were raised by the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis). Suffice it to say that it is as important to establish the principle of a general teaching council for people in Wales as it is for those in England.

Mr. Roy Beggs (East Antrim): If a decision is made that it is in the best interests of the profession to have a general teaching council for Wales and England, surely Scotland and Northern Ireland deserve the same treatment.

Mr. Kilfoyle: I agree that if the principle is good, it should be universally applied; I understand that such a body currently exists in Scotland.

Mr. Win Griffiths (Bridgend): For the sake of clarification, may I point out to the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis) that the Labour party's policy document for Wales states that, in all probability, there would be a separation after the Welsh Assembly had been created, but in the meantime we wish to set down the principle of a general teaching council for England and Wales?

Mr. Kilfoyle: I am grateful for that constructive intervention and I shall not follow the Welsh issue further.

I shall move on to the comments made by the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster), who said that he and his party would ultimately go much further in defining the remit of a general teaching council--many hon. Members might agree with him. The important point is that the council should be allowed to reach the evolutionary stage to which the hon. Member for Crosby referred, and to develop professionally, with the full involvement of all its members.

I understand the concern expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Mr. Steinberg) about the council's role vis-a-vis the professional responsibilities of individual teachers. The sometimes onerous responsibilities of the professional associations and trade unions must also have been at the back of his mind. That is why I repeat to the Minister that we would fully support

28 Jan 1997 : Column 171

any proposals from the Government that might cater for those issues. The new clause merely provides powers to the Secretary of State to set up a general teaching council as he or she may see fit.

The Minister spoke about the widespread support for the idea and asked whether it would raise the esteem in which the profession was held. I refer him again to the comments of the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington. The measure is one of a package that would go some way towards restoring the morale and esteem of teachers, which have been sorely dented in recent years by the depredations of the Government and their agents, who have set out deliberately to undermine the standing of teachers in the community. We feel that the new clause would be a small step towards restoring the balance.

The Minister asked why, if there was such enthusiasm for the idea in all sectors of education, the general teaching council had not yet taken off. He should know, because he was a virulent opponent of such a council. No succour has been offered to those who want to establish it--except by Opposition Members.

The Minister dons his conciliatory hat on the crucial question of the Dearing approach. He uses that as a smokescreen, simply because of the Government policy set out in the article to which I referred, in The Mail on Sunday. He looked bemused when I spoke about that policy; but the Secretary of State and Ministers are quoted in the article. Unless The Mail on Sunday completely fabricates quotations, the word has certainly gone out that the Government intend the council to be a plank in their education policy at the general election.

The Minister does not want to consider the new clause because the Government want to steal the credit for the idea at the general election, although they have a long history of opposing the establishment of a general teaching council.

Sir Malcolm Thornton: The heartening point that has emerged from the debate is that there is clear support for the principle of a general teaching council. There is some disagreement, as expressed by my hon. Friend the Minister, about whether it should be a statutory body. I believe, for powerful and long-standing reasons, that it should be. We have had a good debate, because there is clear agreement about what the teaching profession needs. The idea is driven by the support from below, but supported by the political umbrella above. That message should go out loud and clear from the House today, and I would not want--

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes): Order. This is turning into a mini-speech.

Sir Malcolm Thornton: I shall be brief.

Madam Deputy Speaker: No, the hon. Member has finished.

Mr. Kilfoyle: I do not want to claim prescience about what the hon. Gentleman was about to say, but I assume that it was a cri de coeur for a bipartisan approach to the issue, asking that we should not vote on it today. I do not doubt his sincerity, which is recognised by all right hon. and hon. Members, but I also do not doubt the fact that

28 Jan 1997 : Column 172

there is a political issue at stake. We have a party in government that refuses to acknowledge that a general teaching council is of itself a good thing.

The Minister can make all the noises that he likes, but he has done no more than to express doubt about whether our proposal represents the most efficacious way of establishing a council. He said that a general teaching council had never been established, despite the overwhelming support throughout the teaching profession. We are offering the Minister and the Government the opportunity to test that support and to propose in the House of Lords whatever changes he and the Secretary of State consider appropriate. We are promising support for the Government, as long as we get the general teaching council on the statute book.

Mr. Dafis: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Kilfoyle: No, I will not.

There is no turning back, and everyone involved should move forward with an idea that, to use the words of the hon. Member for Crosby, has met its time. We therefore intend to press the new clause to a vote.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--

The House divided: Ayes 252, Noes 298.

Division No. 54 [4.45 pm

AYES

Adams, Mrs Irene
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Alton, David
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)
Ashton, Joseph
Austin-Walker, John
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Beith, A J
Benn, Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blair, Tony
Blunkett, David
Boateng, Paul
Bradley, Keith
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burden, Richard
Caborn, Richard
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Canavan, Dennis
Cann, Jamie
Chidgey, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clapham, Michael
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)
Cunningham, Dr John
Dafis, Cynog
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C)
Davies, Chris (Littleborough)
Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Denham, John
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Dobson, Frank
Donohoe, Brian H
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eastham, Ken
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Evans, John (St Helens N)
Fatchett, Derek
Faulds, Andrew
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foulkes, George
Fyfe, Mrs Maria
Galbraith, Sam
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Garrett, John
George, Bruce
Gerrard, Neil
Gilbert, Dr John
Godman, Dr Norman A
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Ms Mildred
Graham, Thomas
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Gunnell, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Hardy, Peter
Harman, Ms Harriet
Harvey, Nick
Hattersley, Roy
Heppell, John
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Hoey, Kate
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Home Robertson, John
Hood, Jimmy
Hoon, Geoffrey
Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Doug
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Robert (Ab'd'n N)
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampst'd)
Jackson, Mrs Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Janner, Greville
Jones, Barry (Alyn & D'side)
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Dr L (B'ham Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd SW)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Jowell, Ms Tessa
Kaufman, Gerald
Keen, Alan
Kennedy, Charles (Ross C & S)
Kennedy, Mrs Jane (Broadgreen)
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
Kirkwood, Archy
Lestor, Miss Joan (Eccles)
Lewis, Terry
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Litherland, Robert
Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loyden, Eddie
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCartney, Ian (Makerf'ld)
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, John
McKelvey, William
Mackinlay, Andrew
McLeish, Henry
McNamara, Kevin
MacShane, Denis
McWilliam, John
Madden, Max
Maddock, Mrs Diana
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mandelson, Peter
Marek, Dr John
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Martin, Michael J (Springburn)
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Meacher, Michael
Meale, Alan
Michael, Alun
Milburn, Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Morgan, Rhodri
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Mowlam, Ms Marjorie
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Paul
Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)
Oakes, Gordon
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Orme, Stanley
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Powell, Sir Raymond (Ogmore)
Prentice, Mrs B (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, Ms Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Radice, Giles
Randall, Stuart
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Dr John
Rendel, David
Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Rogers, Allan
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Robert
Shore, Peter
Short, Clare
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Chris (Islington S)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Snape, Peter
Soley, Clive
Spearing, Nigel
Squire, Ms R (Dunfermline W)
Steel, Sir David
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stott, Roger
Strang, Dr Gavin
Straw, Jack
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Thurnham, Peter
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis
Tyler, Paul
Vaz, Keith
Walker, Sir Harold
Walley, Ms Joan
Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Wareing, Robert N
Watson, Mike
Wicks, Malcolm
Wigley, Dafydd
Williams, Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Winnick, David
Wise, Mrs Audrey
Worthington, Tony
Wray, Jimmy
Wright, Dr Tony

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. John Cummings and
Mr. Eric Clarke.

NOES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Aitken, Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Michael (Selby)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Amess, David
Ancram, Michael
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Atkins, Robert
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Kenneth (Mole V)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Bellingham, Henry
Bendall, Vivian
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, John
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Boyson, Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Peter
Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Budgen, Nicholas
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Churchill, Mr
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Sir John
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Curry, David
Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dicks, Terry
Dorrell, Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Dykes, Hugh
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Sir Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fowler, Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Gallie, Phil
Gardiner, Sir George
Garel-Jones, Tristan
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodlad, Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gorst, Sir John
Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Gummer, John
Hague, William
Hamilton, Sir Archibald
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Sir Edward
Heathcoat-Amory, David
Hendry, Charles
Heseltine, Michael
Hicks, Sir Robert
Higgins, Sir Terence
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)
Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)
Horam, John
Howell, David (Guildf'd)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Douglas
Jack, Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Jessel, Toby
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Herts)
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Key, Robert
King, Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Knox, Sir David
Kynoch, George
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Peter
Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Maitland, Lady Olga
Major, John
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mates, Michael
Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Mayhew, Sir Patrick
Mellor, David
Merchant, Piers
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Monro, Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Moss, Malcolm
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Sir Cranley
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, John
Pattie, Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, David
Portillo, Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, John
Renton, Tim
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rowe, Andrew
Rumbold, Dame Angela
Ryder, Richard
Sackville, Tom
Sainsbury, Sir Timothy
Scott, Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shephard, Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Sims, Sir Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)
Soames, Nicholas
Speed, Sir Keith
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Townsend, Sir Cyril (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Waldegrave, William
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wheeler, Sir John
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Miss Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Young, Sir George

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Bowen Wells and
Mr. Roger Knapman.

Question accordingly negatived.

28 Jan 1997 : Column 176

New clause 11

School performance targets in literacy

'( )--(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations make such provision as she considers appropriate for requiring the governing bodies of maintained schools to secure that annual targets are set as to literacy in respect of pupils of compulsory school age.
(2) Targets required under this section shall be set in respect of--
(a) assessments at the end of each key stage for the purposes of the National Curriculum as specified in section 355 of the Education Act 1996: and
(b) the performance of pupils during each key stage.'.--[Ms Estelle Morris.]
Brought up, and read the First time.

Ms Estelle Morris (Birmingham, Yardley): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

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