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Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney): I support the proposals in the Bill and the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend(Mr. Griffiths). It strikes me that the whole of our education system has been bedevilled by the 40-year-long dispute about the respective values of academic and vocational education. I hope that, by bringing the bodies together, we can introduce the ideas of parity and respect for the vocational routes to education as well as the academic, because that seems to me both fundamental and important, especially in Wales.
There could be a Welsh solution to the problems. In that respect, I support the amendments, which make it clear that we could bring the bodies in Wales together to promote the values and importance of vocational education alongside those of academic qualifications. The original Education Act 1944 envisaged a tripartite development of education, with grammar, secondary and technical strands. It was the absence of the technical education route that caused many of the later problems. Fortunately, that absence was filled in Wales by the development of the HND and OND qualifications and the growth of apprenticeships, which provided an alternative educational route for a whole generation of young people and were promoted by the gas and electricity companies and the then National Coal Board, Hoover and other major companies in Wales. As a result of the collapse of those training schemes, we have lost much of the vocational education that was once available. We need to restore that education; we need to restore respect for it and the qualifications that come with it.
It is vital that we establish respect for national vocational qualifications. They should be rigorous, reliable and respected and we should look for ways to achieve that. We can do that in Wales and we can do it best by bringing the two organisations together to promote a powerful vocational educational route, down which so many of our young people should go. That is the single
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Jonathan Evans):
In essence, four issues have arisen in the debate. The first relates to the power to limit examination fees. One position has been adopted by the Opposition in amendment No. 61 and another by the Government in Government amendments Nos. 22 and 24. The issues were highlighted in the debate in Committee, when the Opposition tabled an amendment that was identical to amendment No. 61, which required that any limit could be put in place only
Amendment No. 62 stipulates co-operation between ACCAC and the QNCA, but we believe that that is unnecessary. Under the existing arrangements, such co-operation already exists. We are resistant to the idea that it would be appropriate to set up a whole new regulatory framework and an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy to achieve that. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths), who is shouting from a sedentary position, need only look to the existing co-operation between the organisations to understand how unnecessary the amendment is.
Amendment No. 63 deals with a substantive point, and I have endeavoured to give reassurances about it. It would make the functions of ACCAC for Wales identical to those of the QNCA. However, Sir Ron Dearing, in his review of qualifications for 16 to 19-year-olds, recommended that SCAA and the National Council for Vocational Qualifications should be merged, but he did not propose what the amendment suggests: that NVQs in Wales should be the responsibility of ACCAC. He did not recommend that, and neither did the Welsh Office as a result of its consultations.
The hon. Member for Bridgend referred to the appointment of representatives to ACCAC. There is a clear divergence of opinion between us. He proposes what in essence should be a representational role for those who come from representative bodies or trade unions. We are
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Mr. Win Griffiths:
I am a trifle disappointed by the Minister's response because, as I read the Bill, the third option is more or less what we proposed in detail in the amendments. We put the amendments down as a marker for what will happen when there is a Labour Government and the Welsh Assembly is created.
The Secretary of State for Education and Employment (Mrs. Gillian Shephard):
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
This Bill is about extending diversity, improving discipline and raising standards. On Conservative Benches, we know that all three are essential to an effective education system, and I pay tribute to my right hon. and hon. Friends for their valuable and thoughtful contribution to the debate today and yesterday.
We are told that Opposition Members have heard of the word diversity. I believe that it appeared in the title of their policy statement on schools. Clearly, they have not grasped its meaning, however, as in that same policy statement they declared their intention to diminish diversity by abolishing grant-maintained and voluntary-aided schools. Equally clearly, some of them can understand it, because they apply it to the choices that they make for their own children. Therefore, there is a split in Labour ranks--a split between words and actions. Most people would call that hypocrisy and if Labour Members' manoeuvrings last night illustrated anything, it was the hypocrisy at the heart of Labour's education policy.
Last night, Labour Members voted against the expansion of popular schools--the schools parents want to choose--and in particular against the very grant-maintained schools chosen by, among others in their ranks, the right hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) and the hon. Member for Peckham (Ms Harman). If their objections were so principled, it is curious that we heard no protest from them when the London Oratory school expanded to set up a junior house, nor murmurings of discontent about the current application to expand St. Olave's grant-maintained grammar school in Bromley. To the outside world, their principles on that matter might well be put this way: "My children are okay, so let's pull up the ladder in case anyone else's want to climb up."
"in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State".
The Under-Secretary of State for Education and Employment, my hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan), said in Committee that she believed that it might be appropriate for there to be a role for the Secretary of State, although she was resistant to the idea of a whole new regulatory framework. Government amendments Nos. 22 to 24 give effect, therefore, to a role for the Secretary of State in limiting such fees and, in the circumstances, I hope that that proposition will be accepted by the House.
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