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Sir Patrick Mayhew: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's welcome for aspects of what I have said, and can move to his following points. He asks whether conciliation and adjudication are not very different concepts. Of course that is correct--they are. One of the objections to the present jurisdiction of the Chief Constable under the legislation is that he is both the decider of the issue, after attempts to conciliate and to find a local agreement, and thereafter the enforcer. That point was made by many people, apparently, to the commission. The hon. Gentleman's point as to whether the one can be done properly together with the other by the same body is a proper matter for consultation. It is one of the issues that will necessarily be discussed in the period that I have described.
The hon. Gentleman speaks of the Chief Constable's duties. Of course the parades give rise to difficult and delicate public order issues--we all know that--but the issues are not limited to public order. They give rise to wider aspects, which may be described as aspects of community relations or political aspects. As I have said, saving of life must always be the Chief Constable's first duty. Whether there is a satisfactory manner in which an independent body can take the decisions that will have major effects on public order and safety, determining them in the light of the principles that have been given, is exactly the type of matter about which we need to hear advice.
Although many of these protests are genuinely made, there are some indications, as we all know, that they are used for strictly political purposes. I cannot point to a reference of the sort that the hon. Gentleman asks me about, but reality and realism suggest that that reference is there, and the report does say that there is a real question for consideration as to what will be the trigger mechanism by which the commission's jurisdiction will be engaged.
Rev. Ian Paisley (North Antrim):
Does the Secretary of State think that, because of the seriousness of the matter, he should meet the leaders of all parties in the House and further discuss the matter because, as the hon. Member for Redcar said, if we do not get it right this time, in years to come, we will reap? I remind the House that we are reaping today. We are reaping the Public
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I remind the House that every Unionist Member but three--the then hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady), and the right hon. Members for Lagan Valley (Sir J. Molyneaux) and for Strangford (Mr. Taylor)--did short gaol sentences because we felt that it was our duty to breach that law to call the people's attention to its seriousness. The Secretary of State is well aware of one matter--that of traditional parades. When the right to them was breached by being removed from the legislation, there was all this trouble with such parades. Who made the statement that traditional parades would have to be removed from the legislation? It was none other than the Dublin authorities. They made it clear at the time and we protested in the House. We went to gaol so that people would be aware of the seriousness of the matter.
It is all very well for the hon. Member for Redcar to say that no civil rights are involved. Why cannot have the public order legislation that applies to the rest of the United Kingdom? Why is it unlawful for me to do something in Northern Ireland that it is perfectly lawful for me to do after I have crossed a stretch of water? Hon. Members need not tell me that there are differences, because there are differences over here, such as racial tensions. We do not have racial tensions: we have tensions of the other sort.
The leader of the Liberal Democrat party said that the measures should be enacted immediately, but to do that would make no difference whatever to the present situation. The Belfast Telegraph thought that it could get support for them, so it ran a poll and thought that it would come out wonderfully. But the Secretary of State knows that the poll showed that, by a ratio of five to one, the parades would have to go on. To say that that can be remedied by a little education by a commission is nonsense.
This is a serious matter and it will have to be dealt with seriously. If people want to parade to a church building and are refused permission, as my constituents have been, they may have every window in the church broken and graves desecrated. Graffiti on the walls of the Orange hall stated, "The Orange Order will never walk". Such situations must be dealt with seriously. Will the Secretary of State ensure that whatever laws are put on the statute book everybody will be equally subject to them so that all are under the same law? Republican bands do not give seven days' notice: they walk and nothing is done about it.
Madam Speaker:
Before the Secretary of State responds, I remind the House that we are asking questions on a serious report. I do not seek long comments and speeches but brisk questions and comments. Several hon. Members are on their feet, and I shall do my best to call as many as possible.
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that this is a serious matter. We must get it right, and it must be approached in a serious way. It would not be approached seriously if we implemented the report without giving people the opportunity of the character that I have described to express their opinions about the report's recommendations. I gladly give an undertaking
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The hon. Gentleman asked why Northern Ireland needs something different from the rest of the United Kingdom. I must tell him that it is for the same unhappy reason as we need other provisions to enable the security forces to deal with powerful factors. The situation in Northern Ireland is different, the history is different, the forces and the influences are different and that needs to be recognised in our legislation. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he said. I do not think that there will be the same need for him to feel, as he said at the beginning of his intervention, that his views have not been considered.
Mr. Seamus Mallon (Newry and Armagh):
I compliment the North committee on the thoroughness with which, in the time available, it did a very difficult job. It did that job very well. But I must express my deep concern that the Government have taken the decision that the so-called "period of consultation" will very substantially postpone the date on which they and the House will make a decision on the matter. A decision will have to be made. Does the Secretary of State agree that there are only three options: that the Secretary of State will make the decisions; that the Chief Constable will make the decisions; or that a body, as recommended by the North committee, will make the decisions?
We know the views of the previous Chief Constable. He said that they were sick to death of being caught in the middle and of having to make political decisions. Is the Secretary of State aware of the perception that will now be abroad in the north of Ireland--that a British Government are again long-fingering something to get themselves over their problems in the House of Commons, and that, in the summer months, the well-being of the people of the north of Ireland will be secondary to that consideration? That is a cynical view. I am not saying that it is my view, but it is a perception.
We have discussed this matter all my political life, and hon. Members from every party have discussed it with the Secretary of State and others. If Opposition Members were to assure the Secretary of State that legislation to put the proposals in place would not be opposed and that parliamentary time would be agreed to ensure that primary legislation is allowed to give the matter the serious consideration that it deserves, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman proceed to introduce legislation? If so, when we reach the awful summer months that we must face, the decisions will at least have been made, the uncertainty will have been removed and the legislative process will have been decided.
Will the Secretary of State respond to the offers that I believe will be made by the Labour party, by the Liberal Democrats and certainly by our party and many of the other smaller parties to facilitate legislation, for the sake of the people of the north of Ireland?
Sir Patrick Mayhew:
I am grateful for the compliment, which I am glad to endorse, paid by the hon. Gentleman to the quality of the report and to those who
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The hon. Gentleman said that there was a perception that the Government are putting the matter on the long finger and binning it. I am glad that he did not say that he holds that view himself, because it would be quite wrong to do so. The answer to the charge can be found in the passage, which the Prime Minister has already read out today, at paragraph 1.49, page 9 of the report. The commission itself states:
"No doubt there will be a period of consultation".
It makes that statement in a manner that implies that it believes that doing so would be entirely reasonable. That is the answer to any cynical perception.
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