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Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that he should be addressing me. I have noticed that the capacity to go on and on is not confined to one side of the House.
Mr. Boateng: I am suitably chastised, Madam Deputy Speaker, but let me point out to Conservative Members--including a new and only too happy arrival, the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Luff)--that we are concerned about the introduction of statutory instruments. It is only right that those instruments should be subject to the affirmative procedure, and not only in the early stages of the implementation of the proposals. The House is made up largely of lay people and should be able to bring to the consideration of matters of civil justice the common sense and practical grounding that ought to be their basis.
Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough): I begin by declaring an interest as a practitioner in this area of the law. I congratulate the hon. Member for Brent,
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South (Mr. Boateng) on speaking for about 35 minutes on this uncontroversial Bill. It was, as always, a pleasure to listen to him. It was rather like watching one of those fellows at the funfair making candyfloss. I draw his attention to paragraph 39.5, subparagraph (2), on page 206 of the draft civil proceedings rules. He may find it instructive.
I was once told by a Government Whip that there was nothing worse than a Member of Parliament talking at length in Government time about a subject that he claimed to know something about. Lest my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Ottaway), who sits in silence on the Front Bench, should at some stage return to his previous existence--he once instructed me, and would be discouraged from doing so again--I shall confine my remarks to a few moments.
I broadly welcome the Bill. I have never understood why we needed a green book and a white book. I hope that the amalgamated rules will prove useful.
Mr. Boateng:
A pale green book.
Mr. Garnier:
Whether it will be a pale green book, a zebra book or any other colour of book does not really matter. The main thing is that the rules will be simple and simply expressed, which is welcome. I am also pleased to hear that we shall have a debate in due course on the rules. I am sure that the hon. Member for Brent, South will entertain us on that occasion as well.
I pick up on one reasonably good point that the hon. Member for Brent, South made about costs. I gently remind the Government that we should think carefully about the legal aid reforms referred to by my hon. Friend the Minister, and the increase in court charges, in the interests of public access to justice. I do not want to bring up the old cliche about the doors of the Ritz, but it is at the back of all our minds.
I should like to mention two or three issues in the Bill. The first relates to Anton Piller orders. I am glad that clause 7 will bring them under a statutory basis. May I, perhaps wickedly, ask my hon. Friend the Minister whether the desire to provide judicial authority for entry into private premises in civil litigation will inform our debates on the Police Bill?
Secondly, what extensions to the provisions on pre-action disclosure are envisaged under clause 8? As a libel practitioner, I am concerned that we should not allow--or at least we should be wary of allowing--irresponsible defendants to get pre-action discovery of documents to fish for a defence, having made an unsubstantiated allegation. I am reasonably sure that the Lord Chancellor does not have in mind allowing irresponsible defendants to go on fishing expeditions, but help on that would be gratefully received.
Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker--[Interruption.] I thought that I was beginning to interest you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Paragraph 2 of schedule 1 says:
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Mr. Donald Anderson (Swansea, East):
That was indeed the fast track. The Bill and the "Access to Justice" report on which it is based represent the fruitful coming together of two men. The Lord Chancellor had the foresight to see the need for reform, the flexibility to change his position on the Civil Justice Council, following his reluctance about it on Second Reading, and, perhaps most importantly, the wisdom to pick the right man for the job--Lord Woolf.
Lord Woolf is a man of enormous diligence, towering intellect, vast legal experience and diplomatic skills. It is clear from the report that he consulted widely. The annexe shows those whom he consulted over two years, which included several overseas visits. He showed a commendable willingness to learn from foreign experience.
Similar reforms have been adopted in response to similar problems in some of our Commonwealth common law jurisdictions, including Australia, New Zealand and Canada, as well as several states in the United States. However, he did not go as far as the German system, under which fixed-price contracts are negotiated in advance between lawyer and client. That might be the most effective deterrent to time-wasting. It might have been instructive to look more closely at that aspect of the German system.
I first came across Lord Woolf when I was parliamentary private secretary to the then Attorney-General, the late Sam Silkin, who had an enormous regard for him, and who set him on the path to his well-deserved accelerated promotion. He is also the author of a very civilised report on prisons, which is light years from the attitude of the present Home Office team.
At one level, the Bill is a technical enabling Bill, giving a statutory framework to the recommendations in the report. The 370-page report is put into 11 clauses and two rather brief schedules. Perhaps the report is not very revolutionary, although Lord Woolf pointed out on Second Reading in the other place that the concept of a unified rule committee for the High Court and for county courts was first recommended by the judicature commission of 1872. The wheels grind rather slowly. The change is certainly welcome, and the merger should ensure consistency of practice at all levels of our court system.
The debate in the other place showed a substantial consensus, which has been largely reflected today. Given the importance of the subject and the fact that a number of other key issues depend on the passage of the Bill, I hope that the usual channels will ensure that it passes through all its stages before the election, whenever that may be.
I follow my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng) in expressing sadness that the Bill, which purports to reduce the cost of justice, almost coincides with the County Court Fees (Amendment) Order 1996, which introduces such dramatic increases in fees. Everyone who has practised knows about long delays, often caused by having to wait until the relevant case papers reach the top of the solicitor's in tray. All such delays are for tactical reasons, of course.
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I remember calculated delays in one case going on for so long without rebuke from the judge, who took a passive view, that, although the proportion of interest in the sizeable property in question had been determined, the value of that property doubled. Those delays were clearly wholly tactical, and were against the interests of the public and the legal aid fund.
By setting a timetable, we are seeking to put an end to delays, which, alas, arise mostly for the wrong reasons, although I concede that in many cases the delays from experts, for example, are outside the solicitor's control. However, although we hope to overcome delays, there are dangers in switching to judicial case management with the judges in the driving seat throughout. The new-style judges could possibly become over-zealous in their work, and therefore work to the disadvantage of justice.
I am not sure how that greater zeal can best be guarded against, but, if the new culture--the buzz phrase in the report--is to succeed, there must be a spirit of co-operation between the Bench and the Bar to ensure that there is a willingness to be flexible, to understand and to enter into proper and informed negotiations, instead of any dictatorship. That depends not only on the personality of the judges, especially district judges, whose role will be much enhanced, but on adequate training.
"Civil Procedure Rules may provide for the exercise of the jurisdiction of any court within the scope of the rules by officers or other staff of the court."
I know the definition of officers, who are judges, but not of the "other staff". Will my hon. Friend write to me, if he does not have time to deal with it this evening, to tell me who those other staff are?
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