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7.8 pm
Ms Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North): Unlike many hon. Members who have spoken this evening, I do not have a professional interest in the subject. I must take issue with my very good--and hon.--Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) and say that, as well as being discussed by those with a professional interest, the issue of access to the criminal justice system for everyone should be considered by other hon. Members, because access to social justice is extremely important. That is the impression that I get from the many constituents who attend my surgeries.
I sometimes think that, if I had been a lawyer, I would be a millionaire, because of the fees that I would have received for all the letters that I have written. I see some hon. Members shaking their heads, but I wonder.
The Law Society is not an organisation that I have had a lot of time for, because of what has happened in Stoke-on-Trent and the problems with mine shafts. There has been much talk of consultation and new partnerships. I wish that those partnerships had been extended to prevent some of those problems. Along with other hon. Members representing North Staffordshire, however, I have been approached by lawyers who operate there and I value my close working relationship with them.
Broadly speaking, the legislation is a preliminary and necessary step to implementing Lord Woolf's proposal by consolidating the complex rules for both high and county court civil actions. I cannot help thinking, however, that--as is typical with the Government--the Woolf proposals are being viewed in isolation. That theme has emerged in this debate. The Government are dealing with the recommendations in isolation, separate from the equally important area of legal aid reform. Like the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile) I hope that we can consider that matter in detail.
After the general election, it will be up to a Labour Government to look more fully into how we implement Lord Woolf's proposals, with an overall review of the justice system. We should consider not only legal aid but the provision of legal services.
The main problem with the Bill is the inadequate funding of the reforms. I heard what the Minister said and his reply about costings and additional costs, but we have not had an assurance that there will be adequate funding of the various measures in the Bill. I am also concerned that most of the legal profession, especially the high street
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Another fear is that the Government seem to be using the Woolf proposals as an excuse to consumerise, which might lead to further privatisation of justice. We have to be careful not to go down the road of business interests above public service. That is a crucial issue and we need to keep a close watch over it.
What it comes down to is, have we got a guarantee that all citizens have access to the law? Judging by their letters, many of my constituents for one reason or another--largely cost--do not feel that they have access to the law. In 1979, under a Labour Government, 74 per cent. of households qualified for legal aid. After 18 years of Tory misrule, only 48 per cent. do so. In effect, that amounts to a denial of people's rights.
Access to the law is becoming a luxury, as I see in my daily contacts with constituents--for example, those who have worked all their lives in the potteries and have repetitive strain injury or some other injury. They do not have access to the law, because they cannot afford it. I urge the Government to deal with those issues. With the withdrawal of legal aid, people either have no recourse to the law or are thrown on to the contingency fee scheme, on a no-win, no-fee basis and are, again, at the mercy of lawyers. To me, that is not equal access to social justice.
Most important, I wanted to make a short contribution to the debate because, in addition to the withdrawal of legal aid the Government have increased the cost of using the courts. I have been lobbied extensively, not least by the Stoke-on-Trent citizens advice bureau, which, with its expertise, brought it home to me what a difference the increased costs will make to people in Stoke-on-Trent. As I said in an intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng), it is not merely a question of the £10 increase for access to one county court. People could find that, for various reasons, they needed to raise about eight different aspects and could thus end up with a bill for £80 or £100. That is outside the budget of many of my constituents, who cannot afford to pay and so do not have access to the county courts.
I look to my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South to pray against the proposals to increase costs. It is not a question of what happens after the increases have been implemented. We all understand the situation. The important thing is to stop such increases getting on to the statute book in the first place. If we are really concerned about access to the social justice system for all, that is where the emphasis must lie.
Mr. Boateng:
We have had a good debate, and it is right that we should have ended on the note provided by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley), who reminded us--on the basis of
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Opening the debate, the Minister told us that he believed that it was right that the reforms of civil justice and of legal aid should go hand in hand. Those were his words and he said that that was the Government's intention. The Opposition's response is, "If only that were true." Let me share one example of where it is patently not.
The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile), who speaks from the Liberal Benches, reminded us of the role of the county court and of county court and district court judges and their staffs in the delivery of legal services. They will undoubtedly have an even more important role to play after enactment of the Bill in the light of Lord Woolf's report, as he envisaged that they would provide information and help litigants to progress their case.
What court staff? How are they to be trained? I ask, "What court staff?" in the context of the redundancies that have already been announced in the light of the introduction of information technology. It has been made clear that staff will have to go as information technology is introduced.
Information technology is to be introduced on the basis that Lord Woolf has recommended it and that it is cost effective and makes sense. How can it make sense to lay off staff as information technology is introduced when it is envisaged that county court staff will have to play a greater role than ever in that they will be holding out an offer of a service of providing
Where are the staff to come from? Never mind how they are to be trained and how their training is to be paid for, where are the staff to come from if they have been laid off, and how much will it cost to keep them in place? That is not a transitional cost. The Minister has not even mentioned staff costs.
The matter goes beyond that, to the important role--the key role--of district judges. We are told that the Government's reforms of legal aid and of civil justice go hand in hand, but they do not. They do not for one clear reason. I shall give a practical example. We know that there is a pilot project for a legal services committee in the north-west. We know that the committee does valuable work, ensuring that the interests of the whole community are represented and that the resources of personnel within the community are marshalled in the interest of the development of legal services. The consumer is there; the producer is there; the local authority is there; and, most important, the district judge is there, representing the branch of the judiciary that is closest to the people, and deals with the small claims court and with the litigant in person.
The Lord Chancellor's Department has announced that district judges are not to serve on the soon-to-be-appointed legal services committees. Why? Lord Woolf clearly
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I ask the Minister to respond to that and to show that the Government will make no final decision on the role to be played by district judges on the soon-to-be-appointed legal services committees. That is essential if we are to see the Bill as the grounding for changes that are to come.
It does not end there, because the Minister has to answer the question about resources that was raised by several Opposition Members. It is not enough for him to seek to limit the cost as he has. He is being disingenuous, even if we are talking only of the training in case management that is required. Lord Justice Henry, the chairman of the Judicial Studies Board, said that there would need to be
Lord Woolf himself recognises the importance of case management--[Interruption.] I see the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Luff) shaking his watch arm. The advice that his silent, sedentary friend is giving is absolutely right, because Lord Woolf makes the point that we have to have
"information and help to litigants"
whom they are currently not in a position to help? Indeed, county court staff are currently officially prevented from giving advice and assistance to litigants. Even though many of them wish to do so, their job specifications and the rules under which they operate preclude it.
"a substantial increase in the Board's Annual Budget",
which is now £3.2 million. How much is that substantial increase to be? Have the Government budgeted for it in the existing budget of the Lord Chancellor's Department? We want to know.
"realistic provision made for reading time for judges".
How much reading time, and at what cost? The hon. Member for Worcester is quite right to wave his watch. We want to know how much that time will cost, and if the hon. Gentleman chooses to give a graphic demonstration--albeit limited to his own wrist--of the significance of time, so be it. We need to know, and the Minister must take time to tell us and those who look to this House. Members of the profession, consumer organisations and the public are concerned about the Government's seriousness about the reforms. We ought to know how much they will cost.
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