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Mr. Kirkhope: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman again. We are a democracy. We are very
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happy to allow people to come here and to express a different view from our own about what is happening in their home country. We allow them free speech and will continue to protect their rights to criticise and make adverse comments about the regime or Government in their home country. What we are saying and what my hon. Friend makes clear in his Bill, is that we are not prepared to harbour people who are prepared to break our laws by inciting others or conspiring to commit terrorist acts in their home country. That is a simple point. We want free speech and we want people to comment, but we believe that that is sufficient. We do not see why we should be the base for planning or plotting terrorism or anything else criminal.
Mr. Anderson: I hear what the Minister says. I hope that he concedes that there is a real problem in restricting or confining those whom we believe to be working together against tyrannical regimes. That could be the effect of the Bill, and it would be wholly counter to our traditions. In the 19th century we harboured those who were regarded by their own countries as troublemakers or terrorists.
Mr. Harry Greenway (Ealing, North): The hon. Gentleman gave the example of Nelson Mandela. I have often discussed the matter with my lifelong friend Trevor Huddleston. The anti-apartheid movement which Trevor founded was non-violent. I believe that the movement ended apartheid in South Africa. I cannot develop the argument because I do not have the time, but it was not a violent movement. Trevor Huddleston, a deeply Christian man, as the hon. Gentleman will know, hated apartheid. He talked of it with great hate, but there was still no violence in the movement, which Nelson Mandela embraced wholeheartedly.
Mr. Anderson: The anti-apartheid movement, of which I was proud to be a part, fully supported the liberation movements, the African National Congress and the Pan African Congress, which as a result of the unwillingness of that oppressive regime to listen to them were forced reluctantly along the road to limited violence, which could be construed as terrorism and could have been brought within the ambit of the Bill. That is the message that I should like to leave the House with. The points that I have made have to be raised as part of a wider debate so that a reasonable consensus can be achieved to combat terrorism without undermining our tradition of dissent.
Therefore, it is with a certain amount of caution that I commend the hon. Member for Eastbourne on introducing the Bill. I understand the motives behind it. I understand the international pressures on the Prime Minister. I understand the anger of our people at those who abuse our hospitality. I believe that there are a number of ways in which that problem could be tackled. I may well come to the view, with reluctance, that the Bill is a way which has to be made available, but it brings with it certain implications and responsibilities which I hope will be fully considered.
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Mr. Tim Yeo (South Suffolk):
The hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) has made a thoughtful contribution to the debate, which everyone welcomes; but I have to say that those of us who do not belong to professions that are paid by the hour cannot help noticing that, after 40 minutes, he is not quite sure what the answer is. I suppose that that is because these are difficult issues.
The hon. Gentleman's response to the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes, North-East (Mr. Butler) was important. Although the hon. Gentleman had made it clear that he was opposed to sex tourism in any form--that was an absolute--it was difficult to understand whether he felt there were any absolutes in respect of terrorism. My hon. Friend teased out some commitment from the hon. Gentleman, in that it appeared that terrorism that involved loss of life was something else that he regarded as an absolute. For many of us, the onus for justifying any form of terrorism rests wholly on the perpetrator--it is a fairly safe assumption that terrorist activity is wrong and even acts against property need considerable justification before we can say that there is any serious defence.
At the end of the hon. Gentleman's speech, it was clear that he had no solution to that difficulty, which he explored at some length. We recognise that there is a difficulty, but I do not think that his arguments were sufficiently convincing--I do not think that he thought so either--to oppose the Bill.
Mr. Michael:
The hon. Gentleman is making a thoughtful response to the questions raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson), but is not the difficulty that the answer to those questions do not lie in the Bill, which, in a sense, is straightforward? The answers lie, first, in the context of the Bill's use--how the Government will use it--and, secondly, in the international community and how it provides protections for people's liberties throughout the world. It is not surprising that the Bill itself does not provide all the answers to my hon. Friend's thoughtfully posed questions.
Mr. Yeo:
I agree--to a great extent, we have to hope that common sense will prevail, although that might be a rash assumption when so often it fails to do so. Perhaps there would be circumstances in which prosecutions that could be brought under the Bill would not be brought, because it was clear that there was no need to do so.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson) on winning a high place in the ballot--something that has eluded me for 14 years--and on his choice of Bill. He made an excellent and comprehensive speech. I was interested to learn about the Bill's provenance--I had not previously been aware of the existence of the international maritime fraud research sub-committee of the Society of Conservative Lawyers, but its endeavours have clearly not been in vain. I am only sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Ottaway) is not present, because, having been the secretary--
Mr. Yeo:
Sorry--the chairman of that body and although he lost his original seat shortly after the report referred to was written, his career has clearly prospered on that very solid foundation.
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I had not been not aware of this gap in our legislative framework and I hope that the Bill enjoys a speedy passage on to the statute book. When introducing the Bill, my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne made it clear that no new principle is involved in the legislation. What we are doing is extending powers that have already been taken in relation to some offences to cover a much wider range of offences. Our courts already have jurisdiction over some offences that have been committed abroad and the Bill would extend that to cover conspiracy and incitement that had taken place in this country.
It is possible to welcome the Bill while regretting the necessity for it. As communications have improved and the world become smaller, so criminal activity of various sorts has become international. It is now more common for crimes to be planned in one country and carried out in another on a regular and organised basis.
Britain now has an enviable reputation as a haven for business. Our tax regime, company law and industrial relations are all extremely sympathetic.
Mr. Butler:
And we do not have the social chapter.
Mr. Yeo:
As my hon. Friend says from a sedentary position, our opt-out from the social chapter is another factor that draws international business to this country. It remains unknown whether that reputation would survive in the unlikely event of a change of Government, or, indeed, whether the proposals by the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher)--which are so severely at odds with those of the shadow Chancellor--might not call all that into question very quickly. We do not want Britain to acquire a reputation for being a sympathetic environment for terrorists or international criminals of any kind.
I was interested in the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Thompson), who has been unable to remain in his place. When he replies to the debate, I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will be able to tell us whether similar legislation exists in other countries when we might be on the receiving end of terrorist activity, especially in Northern Ireland, planned in those countries. If such legislation does not exist, having got it on to our statute book, will the Government be pressing other Governments to introduce similar legislation in their countries? If we take these steps, it would be reasonable to expect similar steps to be taken by countries with which we have close relations and where we believe there may be terrorist activity being planned that is subsequently perpetrated within the United Kingdom.
My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne is such an eloquent exponent of that case that in view of the substantial majorities in the House that we have had in the past two and a half days, I wonder whether the Whips might be agreeable to his embarking on an overseas tour to promote this legislation in other countries. It would be a valuable use of his time--
Mr. Butler:
He should be accompanied by his supporters.
Mr. Yeo:
Of course. My hon. Friend has a safe seat and I am sure that he could utilise the few weeks between now and 1 May very usefully on a world tour. Once again,
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By passing the Bill, the House would be sending a clear message to anyone who is thinking of coming to this country in order to plan criminal activity that is to be committed in another country. Like the hon. Members who have already spoken, I fear that our generous, relaxed and hospitable attitude towards visitors is abused from time to time. The extraordinary growth in the number of people who are seeking asylum here, which some of us think is somewhat suspicious--perhaps some of them are really economic migrants masquerading under another set of clothes--results in their being here for long periods while their cases are being determined. I hope that some of them will take note of this legislation, if it is passed.
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