House of Commons Hansard Debates for 31 Jan 1997 (pt 7)

Mr. Donald Anderson: The hon. Gentleman rightly said that sexual exploitation is wrong and is deemed to be wrong by everyone. There is no moral dispute about that. However, we are in a different world when it comes to the word "terrorism" because it is a loaded word that can be interpreted differently by different people.

Mr. Alexander: I was about to come to that point. It is where I disagree with the hon. Gentleman, for whom I have a great deal of respect. He made a thoughtful and useful contribution to the debate. I, like my hon. Friend the Minister--who responded to the hon. Gentleman's points earlier--firmly believe that it is not the Government's right or duty to take a view on what is happening in another country.

Let us suppose that we had been debating this matter in the early 1980s. The Mandela example is not really appropriate because by then he was in prison. Nevertheless, let us suppose that we had taken as an example someone who was committing or was proposing to commit offences in South Africa at that time. It would have been quite wrong for the House to say,"Well, it is a repressive regime. Well, that person is only agreeing to take down a few telephone lines or blow up the odd train--it is a repressive regime, so the law should not apply." The Government should not take a view on the correctness of human rights issues in another country when deciding whether someone can be prosecuted in this country for doing something criminal in that other country.

Mr. Michael: I understand the hon. Gentleman's point. He is a lawyer, so he may be able to help us. As I understand it, the distinction that he draws is not drawn in the Bill--indeed, I do not see how it could be. He said that judgments should not be made on acts of violence abroad, but what of the situation when communication is made with people involved in acts in other countries, and who may be politically involved? We can think of all sorts of examples, such as the period covering the establishment of the state of Israel, where the act in this country of communicating with people who might be involved in politics, but not themselves in violence, might technically come under the Bill. Does not that require a context to the Bill to ensure, as I am sure the Minister and everyone else wants, that it is used for the purposes for which it is intended, not those that go beyond that intention?

Mr. Alexander: I understand the hon. Gentleman's point. However, my understanding of the Bill is that the act of communicating is not, of itself, an offence. The act of organising criminality in another country by communication is an offence--but merely communicating is not, because it would not be an offence in this country--

Mr. Dykes: Will my hon. Friend reconsider the first part of his remarks, as we could get into difficult territory with interpretations? I appreciate that he was referring to the specific and precise application of the new law. However, we must bear it in mind that under the

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leadership of the United States, of other countries and of the United Nations programme, we do make judgments about countries that commit human rights abuses and international law is then brought into play, potentially or actually. It is not easy to say that this country should not take a view on the internal political behaviour of regimes in particular countries.

Mr. Alexander: I accept what my hon. Friend says. The interventions in my speech show why it is so important to ensure that we do not try to decide whether a country is good or bad before deciding whether something that is the subject of a conspiracy in this country is prosecutable. We should not go down that road.

Mr. Kirkhope: Perhaps I could help my hon. Friend on the question about a message or a communication, an issue that has been raised by several hon. Members this morning. There is no problem with a message, unless by sending it the sender is inciting others elsewhere to commit a criminal offence. In that case a message, of whatever sort--whether a postal communication or an e-mail, as is becoming much more common--would, with sufficient evidence being available, be enough to come within the ambit of the Bill.

Mr. Donald Anderson: Does the Minister also mean a message of support?

Mr. Kirkhope: We have no problem with messages of support, provided that they are not incitements. The word "incitement" is clearly defined in the Bill. Nevertheless, I think that the nature of a message is an irrelevance.

Mr. Alexander: I shall return to my argument, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Mr. Michael: I am sorry to intervene again, but it is an important point. The Minister's intervention was very helpful. If I understood him correctly, the Minister said that the message was irrelevant. As my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) said, a message of support for political activity could be interpreted as a message of support for closer association. There is an element of interpretation, and the House must be clear about its intentions.

Mr. Alexander: I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister will answer for himself when he replies to the debate. A message of support as such would not be a criminal offence in the United Kingdom. A message of support, encouragement and incitement to criminal activity in another country would be a criminal offence.

That is one of the problems that we will encounter in organising the Bill and in arranging prosecutions. I said a few moments ago that there will be problems of proof, and it is right that we should discuss them during the debate. They should be discussed in more detail in Committee.

I want to speak briefly about the middle east, as I take a close interest in middle eastern matters. Most law-abiding countries in the middle east are concerned about the ease with which terrorists from those countries can come to

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this country and advocate violence and terrorism at home. I am told that that is not a fringe activity, but that there are pockets, mainly in the London area, where hundreds of people, otherwise lawfully in the UK, are plotting and openly advocating the violent overthrow of the Governments in their own countries. I do not mean calls for change in their Governments, or their use of the UK as a base from which to bombard nationals at home with anti-Government propaganda. That should be relevant to whether asylum is grantable or not, but we are not considering asylum now.

In addition to what I have described, the same people are involved in money laundering, drug trafficking and criminal activities in their own countries. The Bill will be helpful in stamping out the dissemination of literature urging assassination in their home countries.

We read in The Times in October 1995 that pamphlets were then circulating in London mosques advocating the shooting of westerners in Algeria, the kidnapping and murder of Government officials in that country and the hijacking of Algerian planes. It goes without saying that Governments of countries affected in that way are deeply worried about the pockets of terrorism in our own backyard. The Bill will help in that respect.

If one travels to Tunis, one will hear the same, although the threats from some of those dissidents are not quite so bloodthirsty. It is a matter not of asylum, but of the law currently being powerless to round up people who conspire to urge criminal activities in their home countries.

We have a tradition of tolerance in Britain from which I do not resile, but we should not have a tradition of tolerance towards those who preach violence and violent overthrow in their own countries. Other countries are less squeamish, but up to now we have been a soft touch. The Bill should help in rooting out and prosecuting such people. There is increasing anger on the part of countries such as Algeria, Egypt, Tunisia and Saudi Arabia at the powerlessness of UK law.

I stress that I am not speaking of anti-Government propaganda. Much of the material is considerably more than that. In the well-known case of Dr. al-Masari, when the United States soldiers were killed just over a year ago in a bomb attack, he sent a message to his followers in Saudi Arabia that US soldiers were a legitimate target. If he had sent a message to anyone in this country that British soldiers in the UK were a legitimate target, he would have been booted out long ago.

I take heart from the answer to a parliamentary question on the subject that was given by the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond and Barnes (Mr. Hanley), who stated in response to that question about the activities of Islamic extremists based in London:

"We are concerned at the unwelcome presence of foreign extremists in the United Kingdom who abuse our traditional freedoms. We are in close contact with a number of foreign Governments who share our concern. Any evidence of violations of UK law will be passed to the police for action."--[Official Report, 6 December 1995; Vol. 268, c. 252.]

The Bill will enable that to be done. Britain will no longer be a safe haven for such people. The Asylum and Immigration Act 1996 helped towards that last year. The Bill is timely. We must nip those activities in the bud and make them criminal offences. We must not quibble about