House of Commons Hansard Debates for 31 Jan 1997 (pt 14)

1.6 pm

Mr. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth): I congratulate the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson) on his success in promoting the Bill. It is understandable that he seeks to tackle violence and

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terrorism in view of the assassination of his predecessor, Ian Gow, and I join others in congratulating him on his choice of topic. That assassination reminds us that we are dealing with life and death as well as life and liberty when we legislate; both, of course, are important.

The hon. and learned Member for Burton(Sir I. Lawrence) was right to say that the best effect of the Bill will be deterrence; that, rather than the number of prosecutions, will be the real test of its success. He and, particularly, my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) have reminded us that we need to take care that powers given by the House are not open to misuse. My hon. Friend suggested that the oversight of the Attorney-General might be written into the Bill. Certainly, we need clarity of purpose on the use of the wide powers that will be given by the Bill.

The hon. Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh) said that the powers given were exceptionally wide. Indeed, they are not limited to violent crime, never mind terrorism. We need, therefore, to balance the breadth of the powers to prosecute which, I am sure from the Minister's interventions, is his intention. We need to clarify that point; that will be the Committee's duty during its scrutiny of the Bill. I hope that it will be possible for us to unite in ensuring that we get the balance right. After all, even the hon. Member for Colchester, North (Mr. Jenkin) acknowledged the importance of ensuring that there are appropriate restraints.

The hon. Member for Eastbourne rightly emphasised the pursuit of those who become involved in terrorism, violence and other serious anti-social activities such as hooliganism. That is why we support the powers in the Bill.

Two other issues have led the House to give fresh consideration to extending the jurisdiction of our courts to some acts committed abroad. One is war crimes, which have been mentioned this morning. The hon. Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle expressed concern about the difficulty of obtaining convictions after so many years. I have three illustrations of how important it is not to close the door and how right the House was to legislate as it did. The first involves recent events in Bosnia and many other countries, which have shocked people in Britain and made us realise that atrocities are not a thing of the past, but still happen today.

The second is a matter that has been in the news this week--holocaust denial. Some have tried to say that the deaths of millions of Jews in the second world war never took place. That brings home to us the need to remember the past, which is in the lifetime of some of us in the Chamber--albeit only just--and to ensure that the horrors of what happened in Europe during that period are not forgotten.

The third relates to events in Somalia before the war became a matter of public discussion and even before there was a war. I became aware of it because I worked in a community with a large Somali population. It appeared that there was a hidden war involving violence and brutality towards men, women and children in the former British Somalia under President Siad Barre.

Many British citizens who had fought in the war, serving in the Royal Navy and the Merchant Navy, were agonised by the deaths of members of their families and tribes, yet the international community and the British Government at the time failed them by not preventing the

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continuation of those tragedies. The hidden war in the north then spread into Mogadishu and into the range of the camera lenses and the whole country collapsed. That drew a veil over the terrors being perpetrated by the Somali Government against people in the north, who were closely associated with so many British citizens.

Many people in Britain were communicating with members of their families who were fighting with the Somali National Movement during that hidden conflict. Should we describe them as terrorists? I am sure that the Government do not intend to catch people who are in domestic contact with their families.

I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us that the powers in the Bill will be used with the discretion that hon. Members on both sides of the House seek. It is easily said, but more difficult to achieve, but the Bill must hit the right target without having unintended consequences. There must also be international mechanisms to deal with the problems of human rights abuse in many countries.

It is important that the powers in the Bill are used vigorously, but with discretion. They should be used vigorously against those who are evil and plan violence and terrorism, but with discretion to avoid hounding those who do not support or plan violence, but who communicate with people who may be involved in a struggle against an oppressive or even violent regime. For example, Steve Biko was beaten to death as an opponent of the South African regime and many considered him to be a terrorist. In the past few days, however, those who brought about his death admitted that they had been wrong and that he had not been a terrorist but had sought democracy in his country.