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Mr. Donald Anderson: The problem is that the Crown Prosecution Service might not have access to the best political advice. The Minister has already said that the United States has an anti-terrorism law, but it is inconceivable that that law would be invoked against, for example, people in the United States who conspired against the regime of Saddam Hussein in respect of what might be deemed terrorist acts. What is the constraint in this country in respect of such matters and who will exercise it? Will it be the Crown Prosecution Service or will it be the Attorney-General? There must be some other hurdle to surmount in respect of so-called terrorist offences.
Mr. Kirkhope: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman and I differ in this regard; I believe that he goes too far. I have tried to make my position clear. It is not that I feel that we should determine matters in the political manner that he suggests. We are talking about the public interest, which I know my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton is aware of.
Sir Ivan Lawrence: Does my hon. Friend concede that public interest as far as the Crown Prosecution Service is concerned has much more limited scope than public interest as far as the Attorney-General, with the advice of the rest of the Government, is concerned?
Mr. Kirkhope: Yes. I believe I said that we were discussing two different things. In fact, the public interest is a stay on proceedings where appropriate, but it is not the same as what the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) suggests, which goes much too far in applying political and subjective considerations. It is not up to us in this country to take such decisions in relation to crimes that have been committed here. We want legislation that will take effect against people who are committing crimes or inciting or conspiring to commit crimes in other countries, so we do not believe that the political considerations that the hon. Member for Swansea, East mentioned should properly be taken into account.
Mr. Michael: I understand the point that the Minister makes, and it is obvious that his priority is what hon. Members on both sides of the House would want it to be, but the problem is that there is unease about the way in which the Crown Prosecution Service interprets the public interest. Hon. Members on both sides of the House, and the public, are anxious that a mechanism is in place to ensure that the measure is used as intended.
Mr. Kirkhope: I probably cannot develop this exchange further to hon. Members' satisfaction, but it is important that I consider the matter carefully between now and Committee.
Mr. Leigh: This is a terribly important point. A value judgment is always involved. For example, it would be an
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offence in this country to organise a march that would be banned by the police because it would almost certainly degenerate into violence. Supposing this Bill had become law previously, what would have happened if someone had organised from this country a political protest in the Soviet Union, where all political protest on the streets was banned? My hon. Friend would say that of course we would not want to prosecute that sort of thing in this country--but a value judgment is involved. Is the Crown Prosecution Service equipped to make that judgment?
Mr. Kirkhope: The ultimate protection is dual criminality. The offence must be a crime in this country. We are a very free society and allow people to do all types of things short of behaviour that contravenes our criminal code. It is proper that we should apply that type of consideration when we consider whether prosecutions should proceed. I do not want to detain the House too long, but I appreciate that a valid point is being made. I shall consider the matter and we may have a word about it in Committee.
Several legislative measures are already taken against terrorism. The Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1996 creates the so-called Diplock courts for the trial of certain offences by judges alone. It makes it an offence to direct at any level the activities of an organisation concerned in the commission of acts of terrorism.
Section 2(1) of the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989 makes it an offence to belong to a proscribed organisation listed in schedule 1 to the Act. The Act does not deal, however, with non-Irish terrorism.
The Suppression of Terrorism Act 1978 enables a wider range of specified terrorism-related offences to be tried in the United Kingdom, but only if they are committed in the country that has been designated under that Act. Other Acts bear on acts of terrorism. The Explosive Substances Act 1883 creates offences relating to the possession and use of explosives. The Tokyo Convention Act 1967 deals with the question of jurisdiction over aircraft in flight and the powers of the aircraft commander.
The Civil Aviation Act 1982 establishes jurisdiction over offences committed on British-controlled aircraft anywhere in the world.
The Aviation Security Act 1982 has largely superseded the Tokyo Convention Act 1967. It has created the offences of hijacking, destroying, damaging or endangering the safety of civil aircraft. The Act gives UK courts jurisdiction in respect of air piracy wherever the crime is committed and provides for extradition for such crimes.
There are many other pieces of legislation in place. The Channel Tunnel Security Order 1995 creates the offence of hijacking the channel tunnel train--I am tempted to say if one can catch it--and other related offences.
Lord Lloyd, in his report on counter-terrorism legislation, said that the most significant additional measure which the Government could take would be to amend the law of conspiracy so as to facilitate the prosecution of those who conspire here to commit terrorist acts abroad. The Bill would widen the range of cases in which people against whom there is evidence of support for violence and terrorism in their countries of origin, or elsewhere abroad, can be prosecuted.
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I mentioned criticisms made against the UK. Those criticisms are largely unfounded. Often, they relate to activity that does not contravene UK law, such as political propaganda and fund raising. Allegations of terrorist activity are often made without evidence on the basis of which we could take action. Where evidence of terrorist activity is made available or uncovered, we can and do take action. We have drawn attention to my hon. Friend's Bill in our response to those who criticise us as evidence of our determination to stamp out the evil of terrorism at every opportunity. The UK is not and never will be a safe haven for terrorists.
Mr. Waterson:
I shall be brief in replying to the debate. I agree entirely with my hon. Friend the Minister that it has been an excellent debate, marked by reasoned and constructive contributions from both sides of the House. I know that a number of colleagues would have liked to have been here today. In particular, I received a letter from the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner), who would have liked to have been a sponsor had he been able to meet the procedure criteria.
The hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) made a typically thoughtful speech. He raised a number of issues, to which he will no doubt wish to return in Committee. If we believe that it is right to pursue sex tourism through the approach taken in the Bill, surely it is even more right to pursue terrorism also.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (Mr. Yeo) made the point about similar legislation in other countries. I hope that he, like other hon. Members, will have been reassured by the civil rights protection built into the Bill.
My hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Mr. Alexander) gave, as we might expect, a helpful legal analysis. He rightly reminded us that, as is usual in this country, the burden of proof will remain that of beyond reasonable doubt.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway), another sponsor of the Bill, made an eloquent plea about terrorism. He also spoke eloquently about the problems of drug trafficking and football hooliganism.
My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mr. Merchant) spoke eloquently about the horror of terrorism. He spoke of London, in particular, as the place where many of his constituents work and the danger of attracting counter-violence to the capital.
My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes, North-East (Mr. Butler) brought to bear on the problem his considerable experience as a criminal lawyer. I am pleased to have him as a sponsor. He raised specific drafting points, especially in relation to the second condition set out in clause 1. Again, they are matters to which we can usefully return in Committee.
My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Sir I. Lawrence) made an extremely valuable contribution born of his considerable expertise and
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I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh) for his kind remarks about my predecessor, Ian Gow. He also raised some evidential and procedural matters. My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, North (Mr. Jenkin) spoke of a possible mechanism to allow Ministers to intervene in prosecutions.
I thank the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) for his constructive speech and for indicating in advance his intention to offer cross-party support for my Bill.
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I cannot comment on the attitude of the Liberal Democrats, as they have chosen not to grace us with their presence today.
I am most grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister for his penetrating analysis of the clear need for my Bill and for pointing out that similar measures apply in other countries.
Finally, I express my thanks for the silent but supportive presence of my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Ottaway) who, in his prescient report of 12 years ago, in many ways foreshadowed this Bill, which I hope will attract support from both sides of the House and receive its Second Reading.
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