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Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse): I call Mr. McLeish.
Mr. McLeish: I think that there are two other Opposition contributions to be made before I speak, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
6.43 pm
Mr. Clifford Forsythe: I have no wish to detain the House, but I would like to make a few comments. I welcome the Bill again, as I welcomed it on Second Reading, and I support its implementation. However, I am very disappointed that new clause 2, covering the code of practice on privacy, was not accepted, because of the implications for Northern Ireland.
I am sorry that the Minister felt that he had not enough time to take an intervention, because that part of the Bill is most important to Northern Ireland and the security situation there. I wish to put on record the fact that the implementation of the Bill will go through the House by negative resolution, by Order in Council, so, unfortunately, we shall not have the opportunity to discuss the impact of those aspects on Northern Ireland.
I am unhappy that it was not found possible to include Northern Ireland on the face of the Bill, so that such matters could have been fully discussed and investigated in the context of the legislation. I am the social security spokesman for my party, yet I have found great difficulty in getting information about the system for dealing with social security fraud in Northern Ireland. I am unhappy about that, too.
Until we see the order, which cannot be debated but will go through the House by negative resolution, I shall not know how the system will work. I have not had an explanation. I do not know whether the provisions will be implemented by the Department or by the Benefits Agency, and I do not know how the Housing Executive will fit into the whole scheme.
The fraud situation in Northern Ireland is unique, because we have the only land frontier in the United Kingdom. That in itself creates problems. Other aspects of the situation in Northern Ireland mean that, in some areas, it will not be possible to implement all of what is in the Bill.
It is unfortunate that the implementation of the Bill's provisions in Northern Ireland will go through the House by negative resolution, because there will be no debate,
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Mr. Chris Davies:
On Second Reading, my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Ms Lynne), the Liberal Democrat social security spokesman, gave the Bill a cautious welcome. She expressed some reservations about details, but said that, overall, it was necessary and welcome. At this late stage in the process, I echo those sentiments.
Of course there are faults in the welfare system as a whole. The hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field), perhaps better than anyone else, has pointed out the way in which the welfare system traps people in dependency, and all too often prevents them from rising out of it.
Mr. McLeish:
It is a pity that the Government have seen their anti-fraud strategy start to unravel during our final discussion on the Bill. The whole House is tough on fraud, and there is no point in trying to defend individuals or landlords--or organisations of both--who try to defraud the taxpayer. In doing so, they create a climate in which many people are accused of scrounging. That is a travesty, and that is why we must continue to be tough on fraud. Certainly the next Labour Government will continue to be tough on fraud.
We could have gone further, of course, and the Government failed three tests. First, we asked the Government to consider introducing a register--or a code of conduct or practice--to ensure that civil liberties are protected as the Government embark on a wide-ranging extension of data matching within both local and central Government. But the Government could not bring themselves to accept our new clause, and I am still dismayed by that.
The second test concerned the question of the specific landlords offence. In Committee, we heard that the Bill would deal with claimants and landlords who indulge in fraud, but that is simply not good enough. It is quite clear that, in view of the scale of the fraud in which landlords are involved and the volume of taxpayers' money being defrauded, we need a specific offence of landlord fraud. That would have sent a powerful message from this House
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The third test was the opportunity to use a Bill aimed at improving the administration of social security to tackle the problem of people who are entitled to benefits but do not take them up. If it was not so serious, the response of the Government to the matter would be laughable. They said that an attempt by the state to help people to get the benefits to which they are entitled would be invading the privacy of individuals. "Ludicrous" does not start to sum up that response.
We then heard that those people did not want to claim benefits, but we should put that to the test. I believe that many of them would want to claim. We also heard that they would resent the state forcing them to take up their entitlements. This is Third Reading--the conclusion of our discussions on the Bill. We could have introduced a common-sense measure to try to help people who need income but do not get it, and the data matching in the Bill could have been of immense help.
Mr. Heald:
The Third Reading debate presents me with the opportunity to thank the Committee for the care that it has taken in discussing the Government's proposals. The Bill received a thorough scrutiny during the 11 sittings of the Committee, but, throughout, business has been conducted in a constructive and professional manner.
I would like to thank the two Chairmen--my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Sir J. Hill), and the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. McWilliam)--for their guidance, their forbearance and their wisdom. I should also like to thank Opposition Members for their constructive contributions, especially the hon. Members for Fife, Central (Mr. McLeish) and for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham). Each member of the Committee in his own way made a positive contribution.
Above all, I should like to thank the Minister for Social Security and Disabled People, my hon. Friend the Member for Bury, North (Mr. Burt), who was my partner in taking the Bill through. He is that political rarity, a man who commands equal respect from both sides of the House. His good sense and plain humanity have helped the progress of this Bill in equal measure.
The Bill proposes a number of measures designed to reduce the opportunity for the fraudulent claiming and payment of social security benefits, and a number of other measures to improve the security, control and accuracy of social security administration.
The hon. Member for South Antrim (Mr. Forsythe) played a distinguished part in Committee and raised the issues that affected Northern Ireland, and I pay tribute to
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The Social Security Agency in Northern Ireland takes security and confidentiality very seriously. The hon. Member for South Antrim will be aware of the moves to mirror some of the developments on benefit fraud investigation and security in Northern Ireland, and I am sure that he will welcome those measures. As someone who knows about this matter intimately, he will know that the agency does a good job, often in very difficult circumstances. We should all pay tribute to it.
Secondly, the hon. Member for South Antrim referred to amending the legislation for Northern Ireland by Order in Council. We discussed this matter in Committee, as he will remember. When Northern Ireland legislation follows Great Britain legislation and the Bill provides for that--as this Bill does--the convention is to proceed without amendment, but other issues which may arise in Northern Ireland were discussed in Committee. The hon. Member said that he had tried to intervene earlier, but that I had not given way. I hope that he accepts that it is most unusual for me to do that, and I apologise.
The main provisions of the Bill are: to enable certain other Government Departments to supply relevant information to the Department of Social Security for the purposes of preventing and detecting social security fraud and for checking the accuracy of social security information; to enable the Department to share information with local authorities, and for authorities to share information with each other; to enhance and improve the range of penalties available against those who abuse the system; and to give the Secretary of State the power to inspect local authority performance, make directions as to the standards that are to be achieved and, in the event of the directions being ignored, to reduce subsidy.
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