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Lady Olga Maitland: I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to early-day motion 422, on the
- "Sale of Armoured Vehicles to Indonesia"
- "That this House condemns the decision by Her Majesty's Government to issue export licences for the export to Indonesia of 50 Alvis armoured vehicles, as well as a variety of police vehicles".
Mr. Menzies Campbell: Do I understand from the approach that the hon. Lady has adopted in the past moment or two that, so far as she is concerned, the United Kingdom should sell arms to anyone who is willing to buy them? Should we not have some regard to the history of human rights in some of the countries to which we sell arms, and not bear in mind our experience of selling arms to Saddam Hussein?
Lady Olga Maitland: We have a very clear policy on arms sales abroad: they are for defence and for friendly nations. We will not sell to a country that will use arms for an improper purpose. It is suggested that it is somehow improper to sell police vehicles to Indonesia. Such a policy would kill jobs--and that would be on the Labour party's conscience.
In the south-east, almost 40,000 people are employed in jobs that depend on Government defence programmes. How will Labour explain its policy to the 380 people who work for United Electronics in Greenford which makes anti-submarine warfare electronic systems, among other projects? Will it say that it is sorry, but it is going to have to ransack their jobs for false ideology? What about Racal Electronics, which employs 750 workers in defence-related jobs? They will not be too happy about the cuts. It would be a cruel trick to hit West-Air, which employs 45 people.
All those companies are naturally concerned about long-term commitment, as they put much of their resources into research and development as well as manufacturing. More important, the export orders that they receive are an extremely good earner for Britain. The development of leading edge technology reinforces
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I can imagine, for example, during the strategic defence review, the Labour party calling for its defence academics who, from the comfort of their armchairs, will advise it to trim this and cut that, with the result that resources for training will be virtually non-existent. Without training, we cannot perform. The mantra would be that our armed forces were no longer large enough to fight a serious war alone--so why should so many capabilities be kept; why should we not share more roles with our allies, leaving spare cash for pet projects in the social services?
I can see a Labour argument developing into, "Why not make tanks redundant, like battleships, since a major land war in Europe is less likely to be fought? And while you are about it, why not bring the Army home from Germany?" The result would be a drastic pruning of regiments, a slashed Air Force, which would have less to protect, and a decimated Navy. Many Labour defence analysts believe that 35 frigates and destroyers is overkill, and prefer to cut the number by 25 per cent.
Labour could conclude that nuclear-powered attack submarines, whose task is to protect Trident, could be phased out and not replaced. Some argue that there is no merit in maintaining an ability to wage amphibious warfare--in other words, mounting an opposed landing from the sea--so out would go the two new amphibious landing platforms that have just been ordered. There are many who see no military purpose in the Territorial Army, so out that would go. The debate will rage. Backed by one of its gurus, Bradford university's Malcolm Chalmers, who says that Britain could and should spend substantially less on defence, Labour will plough on suggesting that we are exaggerating our role in the world.
As it is, 20 Labour Members of Parliament tabled an amendment to the defence estimates, calling on the Government to cut spending on defence to the European average--totally ignoring our responsibilities. At the Labour party conference, seven resolutions or amendments were tabled for the scrapping of Trident. About £4 billion at least is at stake--but it could be much more. That figure alone would wipe out the entire RAF or the Navy. The generals, air marshals and admirals would all be up in arms; the soldiers, sailors and airmen would be in despair; there would be deep demoralisation; and workers in the defence industry would become desperate as their numbers piled up on the dole.
Dr. John Reid (Motherwell, North):
I am struggling for a word to describe that speech--breathtaking, I think, especially the biblical Gotterdammerung that was conjured up in the event of a Labour Government. I suppose that it was, however, an indication that "Care in the Community" sometimes can work. "Wired to the moon" is probably the only expression that comes to mind.
I would not mind so much about the people who roar like lions about defence from those green Benches, had they not sat meek as lambs over the past 10 years while we have seen a 27 per cent. cut from the defence budget in real terms. I would not mind the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) and her hon. Friends referring to the distant prospect of a decimated Air Force, a slashing of the number of regiments, and reductions in the Navy, if that were not precisely the definition of what the Government have done for the past 10 years.
I would not mind lectures on the need to retain stability in the armed forces, were it not for the fact that over the past 10 years under the Conservative Government, there has been a desert of chaos, after which the prospect of two or three years when the defence budget remained as planned--that is what we have pledged--would be an oasis of stability.
I have been provoked into responding to an individual speech, but now I shall return to my original text and join in a brief moment of consensus with the tributes paid to Sir Frank Whittle, welcome Brigadier Richard Holmes to his new post and pay a formal, if early, farewell to Sir Michael Graydon, who has served the Royal Air Force well, and often proved a perceptive observer of political personalities and events. We wish him well in the future.
At the opening of the debate, we were treated to the normal stentorian delivery of the Minister of State for the Armed Forces, who, as usual, appeared before us as a family-size Richard Todd, taking us through the tributes to the armed forces. As has been said, he managed to avoid subjects that could have arisen during the Navy debate had it taken place in the normal way--subjects such as the royal yacht, which I shall not pursue now--or in the Army debate, such as its dramatic under-strength, and the failure to bring the Army up to establishment levels.
However, I fully endorse the Minister's initial comments about air power. The speed, flexibility and reach that he described were amply illustrated during the opening session of the Gulf war. There we saw the utility of air power--the destruction of Saddam's command, control and communications, the prevention of Iraqi control of the air, the damage inflicted on the Iraqi troops through bombing attrition, and the destruction of the morale of the enemy, which is one of the elementary aspects of any impending victory.
I shall refer briefly as I go along to the contributions by other hon. Members. I have listened to many speeches by the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson), but today his speech was witty, moving in parts, informed and incisive. If I single him out, it is because tonight he has something to celebrate. I congratulate him on the fact that after 26 and a half years' campaigning, he has secured the flying reserves.
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That reminds me of the old story about the militant Liberal activists who go on to the street screaming, "What do we want?"--"Gradual change." "When do we want it?"--"In due course." The hon. Gentleman has certainly achieved that. In this case, Ministers have fully observed the strictures of the hon. Member for Wyre (Mr. Mans) to the effect that we do not want anything to happen too suddenly, and that gradual change is always better.
While we are talking about air power, which both the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood and the Minister mentioned, I shall mention in passing the report by the General Accounting Office of the United States into the comparative utility of modern technology as opposed to traditional methods of bombing and air power.
I know that the Minister of State for the Armed Forces, who takes an interest in such matters, will be aware of that report which, although it may be only a superficial, initial report, seems to illustrate the fact that in difficult conditions, such as those affected by weather, and when it is hard to assess battle damage and so on, some of the more traditional platforms are every bit as effective as extremely expensive new technology. That idea is worth examining more closely.
I pay tribute, as other hon. Members have done, to the professionalism of our Royal Air Force. That was exhibited during the Gulf war, and the testimony of that exercise was to the value of air power. The Minister, of course, mentioned the Balkans, where with both fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters, the Royal Air Force has been assisting IFOR and SFOR; the middle east, where it acts as the eyes, and if necessary the claws, of the United Nations over Iraq; and the Falklands garrison, which operates mainly out of Mount Pleasant.
That service is performed not only in defence of our country. The Minister and several other hon. Members have mentioned the utility of our armed forces to the civilian population in times of emergency, especially, although not exclusively, through search and rescue. We identify ourselves with those comments.
We very much support the progress of co-operation and co-ordinated activity with our allies--particularly the French--to which the Minister and the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) referred. We identify with the hon. and learned Gentleman's comments on the progress that he would like to see in common procurement and interoperability. We would welcome that, but there should be no question of political decisions being taken during such co-operation on any other basis than an intergovernmental one, and there must be no question of acceding to those who would seek to place our troops, or those of the Western European Union, under the control of a European Commissioner or a European majority voting system.
The hon. Member for Romsey and Waterside (Mr. Colvin), the Chairman of the Select Committee on Defence, is learned on military matters, and he made an extremely wide-ranging speech on global geo-politics, which I shall not attempt to encapsulate in my brief summing up. He asked about the shortage of spares following the Government cuts, and sought assurances on that matter. I hope that the Minister of State for Defence Procurement will respond to him, either tonight or in
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The hon. Member for Romsey and Waterside also mentioned the effect of cuts in the defence medical services, and referred in particular to the danger to the service men and women who are isolated in national health service wards and who may be in an environment that does not encourage the ethos of the armed services as the medical services previously did--a point raised also by the hon. Member for Wyre.
The dangers of undermining the ethos of the armed services need to be pointed out. Most hon. Members would agree that the ethos of the armed forces is sometimes misunderstood outside the House, and is almost always underestimated. It is one of those items that is difficult to quantify in the ledgers of cost accountancy or to measure in terms of operational effectiveness. However, I have never spoken to anyone in our armed forces who does not believe that in an emergency--when the armed forces are asked to kill the enemy or to defeat its will--the ethos of the British armed forces takes an almost concrete form. We must look at the long-term effect that contractorisation, privatisation and cuts could have on the martial ethos of the British armed forces. If we undermine that ethos, we may find that we pay a heavy price in operational effectiveness for short-term savings.
A number of hon. Members referred to the defence industry. The hon. Member for Romsey and Waterside commented that if we are to remain a major player in the world market and provide back-up for the skills of the RAF, we need to encourage innovation and development. That is why we welcome the technology foresight programme, and we are enormously encouraged by the active campaign mounted in support of it by the Society of British Aerospace Companies.
A number of rather nervous Conservative Members raised what they insist on calling a defence review, but what we have always referred to as a strategic security review--which I know is a more complex subject, and is therefore more difficult for the Conservatives to grasp. The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam went half way by calling it a strategic defence review, so progress is being made. We have made it plain that the review is not a cover for cuts.
The shadow Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown), was attacked by the Conservative party last week for saying that departmental budgets will stay the same under the next Labour Government for at least two years. I do not think that Conservative Members can attack him last week for saying that we shall have stability, and then attack him again tonight for saying--supposedly--that we shall change the budgets. I make this simple point to some of the Tory lions who have been roaring tonight, but who have been as quiet as mice while their Front-Bench colleagues have slashed defence expenditure: two years of maintaining the plans as currently set out for defence expenditure would be an oasis of stability in the desert of financial chaos created by the Government.
The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam said that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition had said in his article in The Daily Telegraph that the security review was to give stability. She will forgive me if I say that she only half-quoted. I know the phrase by heart:
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That is important because, as several hon. Members have said, if we do not have an industrial strategic dimension to our defence planning, we shall end up merely transferring costs to the welfare budget or losing out in science, technology, unemployment and so on. In other words, we hope that we have the capacity to institutionalise strategic thought at the centre of the Ministry of Defence, as that has not been too evident to date.
The question of Eurofighter has been raised repeatedly. I understand that an election campaign is under way and that it may seem convenient to try to gain a few votes in seats that are considered strategic, by bringing the debate down to a party political level and attempting dishonestly to portray the Labour party as being opposed to Eurofighter.
I merely ask every Conservative Member to consider whether it is in the national interest, when there has been a united front on the issue for six years, to allow the untrue story to go abroad in the next two months, in the immediate run-up to the decision in the Bundestag, that the United Kingdom parties are divided on Eurofighter. If the German Opposition can put about a credible story that the next Labour Government oppose Eurofighter, Conservative Members will have done their country no service.
We are committed to the programme as it stands. We shall order Eurofighter, provided always--these provisos apply to the Government as well; there is no blank cheque for the Germans--that there is a continuing agreement on work share, numbers and financial arrangements that is acceptable to the British Government and British industry.
On numbers, we are committed to the programme as it stands. I cannot be clearer than that. If any Conservative Member thinks that, lowly though my position is, I would be stupid enough to repeat the words that I have said tonight and to say what I have said today and last week, without discussing the matter with my Treasury team and my leader, they are either naive or believe that I have a death wish as regards my future career. I cannot make the position any clearer. I hope that from now on the issue will not be used as a party political tool to the detriment of our country.
We have long expressed our support for the staff college and for the moves towards more joint service activity and operations, which were mentioned by various hon. Members. I was able, courtesy of the Minister, to visit the joint permanent headquarters at Northwood, and was greatly impressed by the progress being made in that direction. That is the context in which we have supported, and continue to support, the concept of a joint staff college.
"a period of stability and reflection".
The stability comes from two years' maintenance of finance and budgets; the reflection comes from forward planning and the need to have a long-term strategic assessment of our aims five, 10 or 15 years down the road, exactly as we would have for any individual item of expenditure in the defence budget; and from interleaving foreign affairs with defence--after all, defence is the daughter of foreign affairs--and with the industrial dimension.
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