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Mr. Bill Walker: The hon. Gentleman probably does not know that the Air Training Corps is carrying out pilot schemes with youngsters at risk. It is not taking people who have committed offences but is taking youngsters whom social work departments deem to be at risk.

Dr. Reid: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but I was aware of that. The Army has also done it. I have spent two weekends on such schemes and I was deeply impressed.

I was surprised by the peremptory nature of the story that appeared in various newspapers. I know that this was nothing to do with the Ministry of Defence. It certainly was not a leak. It was merely a coincidence that when the story appeared, the Secretary of State for Defence happened to be out with the cadets, and press photographers were there. No costings were attached. The story did not distinguish between the sea cadets and the other two cadet forces. The sea cadets are funded by local government, not the MOD; their funding has been slashed for the past 10 years. There was a hint of compulsion and it was all to be done through schools. None of those factors is helpful to those who want to operate through an extension of the existing cadet scheme. I hope that the manner in which the story was put out and the flaws in the argument do not kill off expansion for the Government who will take over after the general election.

I must deal briefly deal with the aberration of the last five minutes of the Minister's speech. I cannot believe that it was his own work. It was out of character for him

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to launch a vicious attack on the Opposition. I can suppose only that he was instructed to read it by some central office spin doctor. Does he honestly think that anyone will believe his promise of stability in finance and manpower this time round? Does he think that everyone has already forgotten that the Government have cut defence expenditure by 31 per cent. in real terms, or that RAF personnel have been cut by 38 per cent. since the Prime Minister came to power?

When the Minister says that the Labour party in government cannot be trusted with the ethos of the armed forces, does he think that people have forgotten that service men and women's houses have been sold off to the Japanese or that the Royal Naval college was to be sold to the highest bidder? When he talks about the administration of the future of our armed forces being in danger, can he not recall--as even his colleagues would politely admit--that the past 10 years have in large part consisted of incoherence in strategy, instability in structures and, in some ways, incompetence in finance? Certainly, on occasion, there has been indifference to some personnel matters such as morale and overstretch.

The Labour party does not claim that it would get everything right, but the Conservative party's persistent claim that it is the only patriotic party and the only party capable of defending this country has a rather hollow ring in the country, because no one believes that the defence budget, for instance, is any safer in the Conservative Government's hands than the national health service budget. The resonance of the comments that have been made tonight will be regarded as neither effective politically nor useful for the future of our forces.

The people who have to suffer from instability and incoherence are those in the RAF. The 1990s have not been an easy period for any of our forces. The Government have struggled with the great changes--they have been difficult changes--of the previous decade and, all too often, the armed forces have been asked to bear the burden of the Government's inadequacies, or perhaps the inadequacies of the House, in coming to terms with those great changes. The forces have, as ever, borne that burden with a fortitude bordering on the miraculous. They have displayed the professionalism and dedication that everyone in the House has come to expect of them. They have borne the burdens that they have been asked to bear, as well as the increasing commitments and diminishing resources, with determination and commitment. They have stood sentinel in the defence of their country, but they have also served in the interests of the wider world through NATO and the United Nations.

Whatever our differences in the House, we are united in our respect, gratitude and admiration for the men and women who so selflessly serve our country. They deserve the respect and thanks of all of us, and I am sure that they have it from all of us.

9.21 pm

The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. James Arbuthnot): First, I echo the words of the Chairman of the Select Committee on Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Waterside (Mr. Colvin), in thanking Air Chief Marshal Sir Michael Graydon for a long and extremely distinguished

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contribution to the Royal Air Force and to the defence of his country. I am sure that the whole House will wish his successor well when he takes up his post.

A number of important points have been made during this debate on both sides of the House. I cannot answer all of them, but my hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces or I shall write to those hon. Members whose points we cannot cover.

My hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Waterside, in a thoughtful and wide-ranging speech, and the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell), asked about TACEVALs. To reduce the burden on units until April 1997, the Chief of Air Staff directed that tactical and operational evaluations were to be postponed and formal inspections and staff visits scaled down. However, I can reassure my hon. Friend and the hon. and learned Gentleman that temporarily postponing those evaluations will not prejudice the RAF's NATO role, nor its operational capability. NATO is currently undertaking a complete review of the TACEVAL-OPEVAL system and it is intended to resume evaluation of RAF units in line with the new NATO guidelines later this year.

My hon. Friend the Chairman of the Select Committee asked about spares and fleet serviceability figures. Again, I reassure him that corrective measures are in hand and some have already begun to feed through to the serviceability of aircraft, although it must be said that some have not yet fed through. We expect the figures over the next six months to show a marked improvement.

The hon. Member for Clackmannan (Mr. O'Neill) made a moving speech about the Mull of Kintyre Chinook accident, a tragedy that saddens us all. I cannot deal in this speech with the details that he raised. The RAF's investigation was scrupulous. It found no evidence of structural or technical malfunction, nor of hostile action. Nevertheless, the hon. Gentleman asked some important questions and my hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces will write to him to answer those questions.

The hon. Member for Cambridge (Mrs. Campbell) spoke about her constituency--

Mr. O'Neill: Before the Minister goes on, I have to tell him that that was a most disappointing response. I got in touch with his office yesterday and sent him a fax detailing the points I was going to raise today; I did so with the express purpose of getting the Minister to respond to those points today. I think that 16 to 24 hours' notice of points to be raised is more than enough to allow any Government Department to deal with them. I took the trouble to do that because I did not want to be palmed off in the way that I have been this evening. That is not a fair way to treat the House or to deal with a matter of such gravity in a debate of this kind, which represents one of the few opportunities that Back Benchers have to raise issues of this nature.

Mr. Arbuthnot: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman has reacted in that way. The reason why I am treating his important comments in the way that I am is that, while it has been possible to produce a complete and detailed answer to the points that he raises, it would not provide a balanced winding-up speech for this debate to spend the 20 minutes or more that would be needed to cover the whole of the Chinook accident. I have details about which

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my hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces will write to the hon. Gentleman, who will be able to make those details public in whatever way he wishes. It was important that the hon. Gentleman should have made his speech, because I know that he felt strongly that the families of those who were held to blame for that crash had not had their points put on the record and he has had the opportunity to do that. It is, however, right to deal with the details in the way that I have suggested.

Mr. O'Neill: I do not want to take up the Minister's time and I understand his point, but he will understand my frustration. All I would say is that I take his point and I would hope that, at the appropriate time and after I have received his response, I shall be able to bring the relatives to meet the Minister for the Armed Forces to discuss the matter. I should like to think that will be possible and that the Minister's response to me will be put in the Library and be available for anyone else to read.

Mr. Arbuthnot: I see no reason why the response should not be put in the Library. As for a meeting with my hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces, that is a matter that the hon. Gentleman will wish to raise with my hon. Friend.

The hon. Member for Cambridge spoke about her constituency interest in the Tristar maintenance contract. As she knows, the Government are committed to a policy of international competitive bidding. That has two effects: first, it provides value for money for the taxpayer; and, secondly, it prompts British industry to become very competitive. As a result of that competitiveness, British industry is doing very well, not only by taking over 90 per cent. of British defence orders by putting in the best bids, but by taking 25 per cent. of the entire world's defence trade last year--up from 19 per cent. in 1995, which figure was up from 16 per cent. in 1994. That is a remarkable achievement. It is obvious that our defence sector is extremely healthy--second only to that of the United States and supporting 360,000 jobs.

On the occasion that we are talking about, Marshall put in one bid that was competitive and one bid that was not. The hon. Lady does her constituents no service by suggesting that Marshall is going to collapse as a result of GAMCO putting in a better bid. Marshall will continue to act as the conversion design authority for RAF Tristars, unless the hon. Lady insists on talking the company out of the job.

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