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Mr. Maclean: My hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield made a telling and powerful speech. He is now tempting me to agree with some of his eloquent phrases. Many have professed their conservatism this morning and then made arguments that might get them drummed out of the brownies and certain other clubs around Westminster. Some of my hon. Friends will have to make amends for the views that they have expressed about state-run monopolies as paternalistic organisations.

I accept that Britain's strength and greatness is based in many ways on some of our great institutions, for which we want no competition from any quarter--the monarchy, Parliament, this House and the other great institutions that make Britain a place worth living in. I am not certain whether the national lottery has yet moved into that league of institutions that make Britain the place that it is. I do not regard the national lottery as entirely paternalistic. It is successful and it does the job that Parliament set it up to do. The House set it up in its current form and if it wishes it can amend it or the competition to it.

It is important that the Tote Direct system that has been set up will allow through terminals the opportunity for super-bets. That will greatly increase the pool of money, and that in itself could make it a worthwhile rival to the lottery. It is hoped that the money going into the Tote through Tote Direct will rise to £100 million and be added to the race course pool of £74 million a year. Tote jackpots will be greatly boosted by that move.

11.30 am

The Government cannot accept the amendment, but I hope that in my extensive reply to the debate I have shown the House that the Government's mind is not completely closed to the possibility that one day, when matters have settled and we have considered the midweek lottery figures and other issues for a little longer, it may be possible to allow betting on the outcome of the national lottery. However, for the moment that would be premature. The Government have not adopted a dog-in-the-manger attitude to the betting industry. We are doing all that we can to allow it to compete successfully without the additional carrot of the national lottery.

Mr. John Greenway: This has been a worthwhile two-hour debate and in many respects it has shown the House at its best. That is easily said, but hon. Members have been open minded and those who have spoken are interested in racing and in the national lottery. The House has given the issue, which as the Minister said will return in future, a thoroughly good airing.

The Minister's comments were encouraging and we understand why the Government are not able to support the feature of the Bill to which my amendment relates. Perhaps we in the racing world and in bookmaking should not wait and see but should continue to negotiate in the hope that in future the Government will decide in our favour.

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I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.--[Mr. Ottaway.]

11.33 am

Mr. John Greenway: Despite my disappointment at having to withdraw my amendment on Report, I am pleased that this is a landmark Bill for the Horserace Totalisator Board. This is undoubtedly a day of great rejoicing because in a few minutes the House may give the Bill its Third Reading and we can look forward to Royal Assent.

It is impossible to overestimate the value of the Tote to racing. We heard much about that on Report. It has a turnover of about £300 million on which it makes a profit of about £11 million, all of which goes to racing. That is equal to about one fifth of the amount from the horse race betting levy on the much bigger betting turnover of several million pounds placed with high street bookmakers.

Many people in racing have argued that the Tote should have a monopoly on betting. That is not an issue for today, but if it does not have a monopoly it should have the ability to compete on equal terms with high street bookmakers and, increasingly, to work with those bookmakers in marketing the super bet. That must be the right approach. Increasingly, people want to place bets on non-sporting events. The Tote is currently restricted, but the Bill liberalises its activities and gives it the freedom that Conservative Governments should be about. Our philosophy is to give people freedom, choice and opportunity and the Bill does precisely that. It is a worthwhile deregulation measure and I greatly welcome Government and Opposition support in addressing the issue.

It is important to allow betting not just on all events, including non-sporting events, and for Tote bookmakers to be on an equal footing but to reverse the loss of trade that is suffered by other betting shops and which the current disadvantage has brought about. It is crucial to put that right and the Bill does that.

As I have said, it is difficult to overestimate the value of the Tote to racing. It does a formidable job and its support is cherished by all those in racing. I shall give the House a brief idea of the value of that support.

Mr. Tim Smith: How will the Bill work because I understand that at the moment bets on the Tote create a pool from which prize money is paid, leaving a balance. Therefore, it is impossible for the Tote to lose money. Will that be possible under the new arrangements? Will all bets be similarly pooled?

Mr. Greenway: I understand that they will all be pooled. That is what makes the odds so interesting and gives the punter the certainty of a sporting chance. That is the nature of pool betting and it is that which is makes it so valuable.

In racing, pool betting often throws up quite different odds from those offered by a bookmaker. I know that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, are looking forward to a visit to a racecourse. One can bet on the Tote and get quite different

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odds from those offered by bookmakers. Contrary to what the big three bookmakers often say, the Tote is not always one way. I was once asked by a punter for a tip. Apart from the obvious one of, "Do not bet what you cannot afford", my tip was to examine the race course odds, leave the bet as late as possible and inspect the place odds on the Tote.

The Tote can often offer extremely good value, as the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel) discovered when we visited Newbury race course on an all-party racing committee day out. I shall explain why the Tote gives good value to racing. I said earlier that we have probably lost £1.5 million to £1.75 million in profit over the past 10 to 11 months because this measure has not been on the statute book. On Second Reading in another place the chairman of the Tote, Lord Wyatt of Weeford, to whom I pay tribute for his stewardship of the Tote and whose chairmanship will come to an end in a few weeks, said that the sponsorship value would have been 50 races with prize money of £30,000 or 30 races with prize money of £50,000. That goes to the heart of what my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) asked me on Report.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) spoke on Report about the Cheltenham Gold cup. It is one of the most prestigious steeplechases of the year and it is sponsored by the Tote. It is Tote sponsorship that makes Cheltenham festival what it is. At York, the Ebor Trophy race is held on the three days of what are known as the York Ebor meeting. That is held in late August and it is arguably the best flat racing festival in the world. Without the sponsorship of the Tote, it would be a less successful event. As a result of this measure, we can look forward to the Tote being able to improve and increase its sponsorship throughout the world of racing.

I should like, with your indulgence, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to refer to Jodami, a horse from Ryedale, which won the Cheltenham Gold cup three or four seasons ago and which, sadly, sustained an injury when it narrowly failed to win the Gold cup in Ireland on Sunday. It has now had to retire. We are all very sad about that in north Yorkshire--not only have we now lost Jodami to racing but I lose Peter Beaumont's yard in Brandsby to another constituency after the election. However, there are plenty more racing stables in need of substantial financial support in what will remain of Ryedale.

We cannot underestimate the value of the Tote to racing. However, its input cannot be sustained without continual improvement of the Tote's arrangements. What is the future for racing? Interestingly, only this week the British Horse Racing Board published a new discussion paper entitled "Racing Industry Review: Options for Change" in which it outlines the future of the racing industry. The review highlights the importance of the Tote and the levy in the racing industry's financial arrangements.

The review makes the point--it is important to put this on record--that the Government have a clear financial interest in the success of racing as they take some £400 million a year in general betting duty out of the tax paid on bets in betting shops. Only £56 million comes back in the levy, and we shall have to redress that balance at some point.

To maintain the turnover in racing, whether in the Tote bookmakers that we are debating or in the high-street bookmakers, racing must be competitive. The quality of

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racing is in the competitiveness in the sense that racing does not always have to involve horses of groups 1 or 2 calibre, or steeplechasers with ratings in excess of 130; it means having horses of equal form and ability, and some of the most exciting racing takes place with horses in the lower groupings which may have ratings of under 100. That competitiveness stimulates and encourages people to bet on racing. The only way in which the racing industry will remain competitive at all levels is if we ensure that the sport is properly financed. The contribution to racing from the Tote and bookmaking generally is crucial in this regard.

What is the future for the Tote, bookmakers generally and betting on all kinds of events, not only horse and greyhound races? I believe that new technology and deregulation will have to go hand in hand. The announcement this week that Ladbroke is joining in the Tote's direct operation is all about making the best use of new technology to have access to the multi-bets and the multi-pool bet to which my right hon. Friend the Minister referred.

Parliament must continue to have an open mind. It must also take a keen interest in ensuring that the regulatory framework is right, not just to ensure that the Tote and bookmakers have the opportunities they need to run their business but so that all betting is properly conducted and that the punters are treated fairly. My hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield raised an important matter when he spoke of the value of pool betting, its security and efficacy.

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