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Mr. Bates: Well, seven days is a long bounce, as they say, just as a week is a long time in politics.
An important point was raised about recorders. It has long been recognised that the full-time judiciary must be disbarred from membership of the legislature, and part I of schedule 1 achieves that. It has also been long recognised that it is not only compatible with being a Member of Parliament to practise a profession, but can be a positive advantage, both to the individual Member and to the House as a whole. Several hon. Members are lay justices, and I am not aware of anyone raising any objection to that.
The position of recorders is somewhat different, in that they are paid for each sitting day; it would be a poor judicial system that did not pay them for the valuable work that they do, which is, after all, a public service. Often those people are in chambers and could therefore be earning substantially more than they are given for their daily sitting as a recorder.
Of course, those recorders do not sit within the boundaries of their constituency. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Sir I. Lawrence) represents a seat in Leicestershire.
Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough):
Staffordshire.
Mr. Bates:
He represents a seat in Staffordshire, but sits as a recorder in London. I understand that three Members are serving recorders. Their practical knowledge of the administration of justice has brought valuable experience to the House. Members who are recorders or assistant recorders do not, by custom, sit as recorders in their constituencies. Supporters of the amendment have not succeeded in persuading me that that long-established custom should be changed. I therefore advise my right hon. and hon. Friends to vote against the amendment. I commend the motion to the House.
Mr. Peter Bottomley:
By leave of the House, I should like to speak again.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
The hon. Gentleman cannot speak again.
Mr. Bottomley:
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have a difficulty over the industrial tribunal change. My hon. Friend the Minister confirmed in winding up that we are bringing something into statute which was not there before and argued that the House should accept that. He kindly acknowledged in his
Madam Deputy Speaker:
That is not a point of order. I cannot adjudicate on such matters. It is my strict understanding that it is not possible to speak twice to the same Question except in very limited circumstances. I do not think that that applies to ordinary Back Benchers.
Mr. Spearing:
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The House is obliged to the hon. Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley). He has spotlighted something that did not occur to us in the debate. We do not know how many people might be disbarred in the next few weeks by our decision tonight on candidatures for office. Would it be in order for the Minister not to move the motion, or for it to be negatived? When the Government find out whether anyone will be affected--and the effects could be serious--they could bring back the substantive motion, which could go through the House quickly, perhaps even on the nod. It is, of course, a matter for the Minister to decide whether he should pursue that course of action. If he does not pursue it, and there is difficulty, it may be said that it could have been avoided if he had listened to the debate and to the hon. Member for Eltham.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
It is not for the Chair to second-guess a Minister on whether he wishes to withdraw a motion. That must be a matter for him. Normally, if one does not like something, one votes against it.
Mr. Bottomley:
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would be most grateful if you could guide me to the reference in "Erskine May" that distinguishes between Back Benchers and Front Benchers speaking by leave of the House. This is my only chance to respond to the Minister's remarks about the debate. For me to block the motion because I was unable to make some concluding remarks would be a rather heavy weapon to use, but, as you said, that is an option open to hon. Members.
The sense of the debate was that the Government should get their change to the law. However, we now know not only that it is possible that people have stood for selection, and perhaps been chosen, but that it is conceivable that they might have put themselves or their parties to inescapable expenses, not knowing that the House would make a retrospective change. The easiest way forward might be if I were to conclude my point of order, listen to your ruling and ask whether by leave of the House, I might make some concluding remarks that could tidy the issue up to the satisfaction of the House. If any hon. Member said no, I would not pursue it. If I could speak, it may help those outside the House who want to join us after the general election.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
The general rule is that a Member may not speak twice to the same Question. There
Mr. Bottomley:
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I asked whether there was a reference in "Erskine May" to Back Benchers not being able to ask the leave of the House to speak again.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
I have already said what I believe the position to be. I am sure that "Erskine May" references can be found, but I cannot produce them now. I am satisfied that I was correct on my last point.
Mr. Spearing:
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Would it be in order for the Minister, if he so wishes, to take my suggestion before you put the Question on my amendment?
Madam Deputy Speaker:
I am sorry, but I did quite not catch that.
Mr. Spearing:
Would it be in order for the Minister to pursue my suggestion, which I hope was constructive, to avoid any problems with candidates in the next three weeks, before you put the Question on the amendment, which I believe is the next formal Question to be put by the Chair? So far, the Minister has shown no sign of so doing, but I hope that he would use it as an insurance policy so that the House will not be blamed for any consequences. We do not know the facts.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
I cannot rule from the Chair on what a Minister wishes to do. No doubt he will make his decision plain and the hon. Gentleman will be able to decide his course of action.
Mr. Rooker:
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can you confirm that you understood that the Minister said that the resolution formalises the status quo? Perhaps the Minister could confirm that passing this measure does not change anything. However, for the better information of those who may be affected in the next couple of weeks, perhaps all 2,700 of them could have the issue drawn to their attention as a matter of urgency so that they would know exactly where they stand.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
That is not a point of order.
Mr. Bates:
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. This bout of points of order may be due to the fact that we have not made absolutely clear the position on people who may seek election to the House. With your permission, I hope to make it clear. Their instruments of appointment to their present positions would require them to resign forthwith on becoming prospective parliamentary candidates. I hope that that is clear for the record.
Mr. Bottomley:
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The House has not been told when that was brought in. I was not aware of it when I used to make appointments
Mr. Bottomley:
If, as a Minister, I was not aware of it, I am not sure that all those who were appointed were
Madam Deputy Speaker:
Order. The hon. Member knows that that is not a point of order and we cannot pursue it further.
Has the Minister concluded his remarks?
Mr. Bates:
Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Amendment negatived.
Main Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That Schedule 1 to the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975 be amended as follows:--
1. For the entry 'Judge of the Court of Session' there shall be substituted the following entry:--
Judge of the Court of Session, or Temporary Judge appointed under the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1990.
Part II of Schedule 1
2. The following entries shall be inserted at the appropriate places:--
The Antarctic Act Tribunal established under regulations made under the Antarctic Act 1994.
The East of Scotland Water Authority.
The Land Authority for Wales.
The Local Government Staff Commission (England).
The North of Scotland Water Authority.
The Scottish Children's Reporter Administration.
The Scottish Legal Aid Board.
The Scottish Water and Sewerage Customers Council or any committee established by that council under paragraph 10(1) of Schedule 9 to the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Act 1994.
The Training and Employment Agency Advisory Board in Northern Ireland.
The West of Scotland Water Authority.
Entry omitted
3. The following entry shall be omitted:--
The Scottish Development Agency.
Part III of Schedule 1
Additional entries
4. The following entries shall be inserted at the appropriate places:--
Adjudicator appointed under section 5 of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Act 1995.
Adjudicator for the Inland Revenue, Customs and Excise and the Contributions Agency.
Assessor appointed for the purposes of section 133 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988.
Chairman of an Agricultural Land Tribunal or member of a panel appointed under paragraph 14 or 15 of Schedule 9 to the Agriculture Act 1947.
Chairman or Vice-Chairman of the Arts Council of Northern Ireland.
Chairman, Deputy Chairman or Chief Executive of the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council.
Chairman or Chief Executive of the Council for the Central Laboratory of the Research Councils.
Chairman, Deputy Chairman or Chief Executive of the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council.
Chairman or Vice-Chairman of the English Sports Council.
Chairman or Deputy Chairman of the Financial Reporting Council.
Chairman or any director of the Further Education Development Agency.
Chairman of Investors in People UK.
Chairman, Deputy Chairman or Chief Executive of the Medical Research Council.
Chairman or Director of the National Forest Company.
Chairman of the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council.
Chairman of the Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment.
Chairman, Deputy Chairman or Chief Executive of the Particle Physics and Astronomy Research Council.
Chairman of the Rural Development Council for Northern Ireland.
Chairman or any member, not also being an employee, of the State Hospitals Board for Scotland.
Chairman of the United Kingdom Sports Council.
Chairman or Vice-Chairman of the Youth Council for Northern Ireland.
Civil Service Commissioner.
Civil Service Commissioner for Northern Ireland.
Commissioner for Public Appointments.
Commissioner for Public Appointments for Northern Ireland.
Any director of Horticulture Research International in receipt of remuneration.
Director General of Gas for Northern Ireland.
Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons for Scotland.
Member of the staff of the Forestry Commissioners.
Member of the legal panel of persons available to act as chairmen of Registered Homes Tribunals.
Member of the legal panel of persons available to act as chairmen of Registered Homes Tribunals in Northern Ireland.
Any member of the property commission established by virtue of section 19 of the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Act 1994.
Any member of a residuary body established by virtue of section 18 of the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Act 1994 who is in receipt of remuneration.
Any member of the staff commission established by virtue of section 12 of the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Act 1994.
Northern Ireland Commissioner for Protection Against Unlawful Industrial Action.
Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards.
President of the Industrial Tribunals (England and Wales), President of the Industrial Tribunals (Scotland) or member of a panel of persons appointed to act as chairmen or other members of industrial tribunals.
Entries omitted
5. The following entries shall be omitted:--
Chairman, or Director General and Deputy Chairman, of the Agricultural and Food Research Council.
Chairman or member of a panel of deputy-chairmen of an Agricultural Land Tribunal.
Chairman of the Business & Technology Council.
Paid Chairman of the Central Transport Consultative Committee for Great Britain established under section 56 of the Transport Act 1962.
Chairman of the Council for the Accreditation of Teacher Education.
Chairman of the Land Authority for Wales.
Chairman of the Letchworth Garden City Corporation.
Chairman of the Northern Ireland Rural Development Council.
Any Chairman of the Plant Varieties and Seeds Tribunal.
Chairman of the Science and Engineering Research Council.
Chairman of the Scottish Legal Aid Board.
Chairman or Vice-Chairman of the Sports Council.
Chairman of the Training and Employment Agency Advisory Board in Northern Ireland.
Delegate for Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom to the Central Rhine Commission.
Director of British Telecommunications p.l.c. nominated or appointed by a Minister of the Crown or government department.
Director of Northern Ireland Airports Limited.
Director of the successor company (within the meaning of the British Steel Act 1988) being a director nominated or appointed by a Minister of the Crown or by a person acting on behalf of the Crown.
Director of the successor company (within the meaning of the British Technology Group Act 1991) being a director nominated or appointed by a Minister of the Crown or by a person acting on behalf of the Crown.
Director of a successor company (within the meaning of Part II of the Electricity Act 1989), being a director nominated or appointed by a Minister of the Crown or by a person acting on behalf of the Crown.
Any member of the Insolvency Practitioners Tribunal in receipt of remuneration.
Member of a Wages Council appointed under paragraph 1(b) of Schedule 2 to the Wages (Northern Ireland) Order 1988.
President, or member of a panel of chairmen, of industrial tribunals established under section 12 of the Industrial Training Act 1964.
Secretary of the Medical Research Council.
Other amendments
6.--(1) In the entry 'Chairman or Vice-Chairman of the Advisory Committee on Distinction Awards', for 'Vice-Chairman' there shall be substituted 'Medical Director'.
(2) In the entry 'Chairman of the Economic and Social Research Council', after 'Chairman' there shall be inserted 'Deputy Chairman or Chief Executive'.
(3) In the entry 'Chairman or Deputy Chairman of the General Consumer Council for Northern Ireland', the words 'or Deputy Chairman' shall be omitted.
(4) In the entry 'Chairman of the Livestock Marketing Commission for Northern Ireland', for 'Marketing' there shall be substituted 'and Meat'.
(5) In the entry 'Chairman of any of the National Boards for Nursing, Midwifery and Health Visiting constituted under section 5 of the Nurses, Midwives and Health Visitors Act 1979', there shall be inserted at the end 'or any member of any of those Boards appointed at a salary'.
(6) In the entry 'Chairman or non-executive member of a National Health Service trust established under the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990 or the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978', for 'non-executive member' there shall be substituted 'non-executive director'.
(7) In the entry 'Chairman of the Natural Environment Research Council', after 'Chairman' there shall be inserted 'Deputy Chairman or Chief Executive'.
(8) For the entry 'Member of a panel of chairmen of industrial tribunals established under Article 30 of the Industrial Training (Northern Ireland) Order 1984' there shall be substituted the following entry:--
Member of a panel of persons appointed to act as chairmen or other members of industrial tribunals in Northern Ireland.
(9) In the entry 'Rent officer or deputy rent officer appointed in pursuance of a scheme under section 63 of the Rent Act 1977', the words 'or deputy rent officer' shall be omitted.
Part IV of Schedule 1
Entry omitted
7. The entry relating to Her Majesty's Lord-Lieutenant or Lieutenant for an islands area in Scotland shall be omitted.
Other amendments
8.--(1) In the entry relating to Her Majesty's Lord-Lieutenant or Lieutenant for a region in Scotland--
(a) for 'a region' there shall be substituted 'an area'; and
(b) for the words from 'such part' to 'Majesty' there shall be substituted 'the area'.
(2) In the entry relating to Her Majesty's Lord Lieutenant or Lieutenant for the district of the city of Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh or Glasgow--
(a) the words 'the district of' shall be omitted; and
(b) for 'the district in' there shall be substituted 'the city in'.
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