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Mr. Michael: The point is to find mechanisms. Amendment No. 1 is one of several. I am talking about them as a bundle rather than separating them, although we are debating them specifically. The aim of amendment No. 1 is to ensure that only acts
- "triable on indictment and punishable by imprisonment"
Mr. Kirkhope: The hon. Gentleman has spent a lot of time talking about issues that relate to a later group of amendments. I want to respond on behalf of the Government, but I hope that he will not object if, at this early stage, I do not respond on matters that are covered elsewhere.
Mr. Michael: If the Minister does not want to respond at an early stage, we shall have to consider matters later. I was trying to make progress.
As I said, there is a variety of ways, not all of which have been explored, in which we could ensure that the Bill is not used to hit the wrong targets and that it is used to hit the targets intended by the hon. Member for Eastbourne and by the Government. One possibility is for the Attorney-General to examine a variety of offences, including terrorism, that may be sensitive internationally. Another possibility is to say that the Bill should be used for serious offences--those punishable by imprisonment. Amendment No. 1 seeks to remove from the scope of the Bill offences at the bottom end.
Under the Bill, it is theoretically possible for an extremely wide range of offences, including minor, petty offences such as parking offences, to be prosecuted. Clearly, that is not the intention of the Government or of the hon. Member for Eastbourne. However, a mechanism is needed to ensure that the Bill cannot be misused in terms of individual decisions being taken low down the tree of responsibility.
Mr. Waterson:
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, for example, the offence of threatening behaviour under the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, which could well arise in football hooliganism cases, would be caught by the amendment, because it is not an offence that can be dealt with on indictment, but can be dealt with only on a summary basis?
Mr. Michael:
Yes. That is why I made it clear that the amendments, which were drafted within an hour or two
I have made it clear from the beginning that these are not perfect amendments. They are designed to ensure that the points I have raised are explored on Report. As I said, the Minister has had only from Wednesday until today to consider those important and wide-ranging points. I point out, however, that the Opposition had only Wednesday afternoon in which to consider what amendments to table, to ensure that various matters were raised. I hope that the Minister and the hon. Member for Eastbourne accept that less serious offences should not be pursued under the Bill. I want them to tell the House how that will be ensured.
Last year, when we discussed sex tourism, the Minister suggested that the House should be careful not to rush into extra-territoriality; I reread the Hansard report of that debate a couple of days ago. This Bill goes very wide. When replying on amendment No. 1, the Minister will have to satisfy the House that we shall not use the Bill to pursue the most minor matters and that there will be a mechanism to ensure that the Bill is used to hit the intended target--the target that has led both sides of the House to support the Bill. I do not want to labour the point further. I hope that the Minister will give a positive response and that we can move on to consider more serious offences.
Mr. Galloway:
These whole proceedings have been an outrage. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) has just made clear, the Committee stage finished on Wednesday. My hon. Friend has complained that he had almost no opportunity to contemplate amendments to table on Report. It remains to be seen whether the Minister can assuage the doubts, such as they are, of Labour Front-Bench Members in the short time available.
The amendment does not go nearly far enough in that it implies a safeguard against abuse that is not there. The Bill, even if amended by this milk and water amendment, will change political asylum in this country in a profound and dangerous way. It will change a state of affairs that has existed since Napoleonic times.
The Minister may hope that he can disturb me; I assure him that he will not be able to disturb my flow. I was unable to be present for the Second Reading debate because I was not in the country, but I am here now, as the Minister will learn during our proceedings. I am here now to argue that the Bill is an extraordinary and ill-considered measure. I make no personal accusation against the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson), the promoter of the Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth said, this is a Government Bill in all but name. It is a hasty and ill-considered response to the specific issue of a political asylum case--
Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough and Horncastle):
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Those of us who have dealt with the Bill on Second Reading, in
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse):
I assure the hon. Gentleman that I have listened carefully to what the hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead(Mr. Galloway) is saying. He referred to the amendment, but he is going a little wide of it now. I ask him to return to the amendment.
Mr. Galloway:
My contention is that the amendment does not go far enough and I hope to persuade the House of that point. I am sorry that I was unable to attend the Second Reading debate. I did, however, attempt to become a member of the Committee that considered the Bill. I wrote to the hon. Member for Eastbourne and I telephoned his office. I would very much have liked to have been a member of the Committee so that I could express my strong views during the line-by-line, proper parliamentary scrutiny. Alas, no place could be found for me.
I was glad to receive a letter from the hon. Member for Eastbourne saying that he was personally sorry that he had been unable to find a place for me. I wrote to him saying that I was glad to hear that because that was not the information that had been fed to me. I had heard that he would not have me on the Committee under any circumstances. I was pleased by his reassurance because if he had not wanted me on the Committee, it would have meant that he was frightened to face my arguments. The amendment does not go far enough. It is misleading to the public and the House in the sense that it purports to be a safeguard against abuse, but cannot be. I am not a lawyer, but I follow issues of political asylum closely and nothing in the Bill or the amendment provides a legal safeguard against abuse. To leave it to a here-today, gone-tomorrow Attorney-General to decide who is a terrorist's friend and who is a freedom fighter's friend is an absolute outrage.
Mr. Waterson:
The hon. Gentleman talks of safeguards. I wonder whether he has applied his mind to the principle of dual criminality which is a central part of the Bill.
Mr. Galloway:
Yes, I have, and that provides no safeguard either because, such are the horrors in their own country and their well-founded fear of persecution for their political views, those who are in exile and have been granted political asylum here, almost by definition come from places where the position can be changed only by what would be considered criminal means.
How can the Iraqi opposition get rid of Saddam Hussein except by violent means? There is no other way in which he can be overthrown. Members of the Iraqi National Congress, which occupies a very plush office opposite Harrods, spend every day plotting the violent overthrow of Saddam Hussein. Personally, I pray for their
success, as does every right-thinking hon. Member. However, they are inciting their countrymen to commit an illegal act. Nothing in the amendment would preclude an Attorney-General taking action against the Iraqi National Congress because of its daily incitement of illegality in Iraq.
Conservative Members may laugh. Of course they are in favour of the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, but that was not always the case. In the 1970s when my colleagues and I were founding the Campaign Against Repression and for Democratic Rights in Iraq, Conservative Members sat on sofas with Saddam Hussein trying to sell him guns. When CARDRI, of which I was a founder member, called for illegal, violent action, which some would describe as terrorist action to overthrow the Government of Saddam Hussein, there would have been nothing in the amendment to stop a Conservative Attorney-General taking action against us. By definition, such dissidents would have been a threat to United Kingdom trade. After all, that was al-Masari's crime. He was threatening and jeopardising United Kingdom arms contracts with the Saudi Arabian dictatorship. So when Saddam Hussein was a blue-eyed boy as far as Conservative Members were concerned, his opponents might have been seen to have been jeopardising British trade, including arms contracts. The amendment would in no way have protected those dissidents who were here lawfully as political refugees.
10 am
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