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12.26 pm
Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham): This is an issue of some concern to me, as our country now increasingly has to face its international responsibilities. I must tellmy hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead
(Mr. Galloway) that I am not sure that when the Kashmiris in my constituency contribute money to the campaign for human rights in Indian-occupied Kashmir, they do so in the direct knowledge or belief that they are contributing to terrorist activities. My impression of the strong and passionate commitment in Rotherham to the Kashmiri cause is that people want an end to terrorism and violence of any sort.
Mr. Galloway: My hon. Friend takes a close interest in such affairs. Has he heard of the jihad fund? Does he know what the word "jihad" means? It means holy war. In every mosque in every town and city in this country, there is a collection every Friday for that fund, which goes to support the liberation movements in occupied Kashmir. Of course, people want an end to the violence, but until Indian occupation ends, they are prepared to support the counter-violence of their compatriots.
Mr. MacShane: I do know what jihad means, but I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding me. Of course there are many funds with aggressive and warlike historic names attached to them, but I do not believe that my Kashmiri constituents support or want their money to go to any kind of armed violence.
I do not want to enter a debate about Kashmir now, because what is at stake is the wider issue of the need to address international responsibilities in a world that is losing the strength of its frontiers. As I look round the world, I see many examples of cases in which the Government should not flinch from the need to prosecute and to demand justice--and, yes, sometimes the need to stay the hand of those who support terrorist violence.
Abominable crimes have been committed in Albania, including the assassination of a wonderful trade union leader two weeks ago by Islamic fundamentalists, who allegedly derive their funding and support from London. Many people in this country are making a fortune from trading with states that turn a blind eye to terrorism. Iran announced recently that it is not prepared formally to withdraw the fatwa issued for the execution of Salman Rushdie. The Government must send a message that we are prepared to deal with the problems of international terrorism and crime. It is not enough for people simply to move offshore or to raise the banner of political activism: if their activities are linked to terrorism or other violence, I would have no compunction in seeing the force of law employed against them. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead will know, London is the destination for a great deal of Russian mafia money. This modest measure is necessary if we are to tackle the problem of international crime.
Much outrage was expressed this week against the gangster state of Albania. Its President, who encouraged the selling of pyramid schemes that have led to the ruination of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Albanians, is the political godson of our Prime Minister. President Sali Berisha has appeared at Conservative party conferences with the Prime Minister, and his Democratic party is now widely regarded as a gangster organisation, with links to arms smuggling and arms deals with Rwanda and Afghanistan, to drug dealing and to the smuggling of historical artefacts from Albanian national museums. That gangster state and its President have strong links with, and the patronage of, the Conservative party. I refer hon. Members to early-day motion 535, standing in my name
and that of several other hon. Members, which gives further details of the criminal activities of the Albanian regime and its links with London.
I put it to my hon. Friend that when some future public inquiry, chaired by someone with the authority ofSir Richard Scott, examines the behaviour of the gangster state of Albania and its political support in this country, there may be a case for bringing prosecutions using this legislation if it passes into law. My hon. Friend is right to address the important question of preserving the right to political protest and our country's tradition of offering sanctuary to those who are fleeing persecution from oppressive regimes. However, we must make a clear distinction between political opposition and supporting and endorsing violence.
Sir Russell Johnston:
I had not intended to speak in the debate, but feel that I should make a brief contribution. It seems clear that the general intention of the Bill is laudable, certainly within the area of criminality--the area of political activism is much more problematic. What I have heard loud and clear, however, is that the Bill is cast in an unsatisfactory way.
The amendments proposed by the hon. Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh) were evidently substantial and it was obvious that he continued to believe them to be so, even as he withdrew them. It is against the tradition of the legal systems throughout this country--in England and Wales and in Scotland--that matters are in any way tilted in favour of the prosecution.
The legislation is important and it is clear that it has been rushed. Circumstances sometimes require that things be rushed--I do not deny that--but I am not sure whether that is so in this case and because the Bill has been rushed, it could produce injustice, which is something that we must be most concerned to avoid. The earnest--I do not use the word unflatteringly--and fairly expressed worries of the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman reflected that. As I said in an intervention in his speech, whatever assurances the Minister may give about the way in which the Bill might be operated when it becomes an Act, once an Act is an Act, it is on its own and it is left to the legal system to interpret it.
I was impressed by many of the arguments advanced by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galloway). I think that he might concede that many of those matters were always and will always be the subject of political morality judgments, but I should be very concerned if there were truth in his allegation that the al-Masari case was the genesis for this legislation. I hope that the Minister will make it clear in his reply that it is not. When the hon. Member for Hillhead told us, rather amusingly, about his experience with Lord Pym and the incident of the television programme about the princess, which was current at the time, he made it clear that Lord Pym would not have that defence if a delegation were to go to Saudi Arabia in similar circumstances after the Bill became law. I do not think that that is a good route for us to take.
Consequently, the Attorney-General clearly will be involved in making decisions about problems that he did not previously have to deal with, which means the greater politicisation of the legal system.
Mr. Donald Anderson:
The role of Parliament is not to be a rubber stamp for the Executive. Our task is to view legislation that has been drafted by the Executive and to question and improve it.
The course of the Bill from the time when it reached the House is a good example of the Executive being questioned, and the Bill might be improved. I say might because we have but an undertaking from the Minister, which has yet to be put in legislative form and tabled in the other place. I suspect that had he not made a concession, the Bill would not have gone through easily in the other place, with its history--particularly recently--of standing for our traditions and against the Government, who may try to steamroller measures through, especially as one approaches an election. The approach to an election is not a good time to speak for civil liberties, particularly with the present Home Secretary.
The Home Office drafted the Bill without adequate safeguards for civil liberties. I was surprised, when I saw the terms of the Bill, that the organisations that seek to preserve our traditions and speak on behalf of civil liberties had not woken up to its implications. That might be partially excused by the fact that, at first sight, the Bill appears wholly innocuous and only on closer examination do some of the graver implications become clear.
I and other hon. Members raised those issues on Second Reading, citing the example of what might have happened to Nelson Mandela in the early 1960s had he sought refuge in this country. I also referred to the question of sensitive communities in this country, which quite properly protest against perceived injustices abroad.
I share some of the misgivings that have been expressed about the haste of the legislation, but that is understandable, because there is limited time for private Members' legislation, the Home Office chose not to introduce the Bill as a Government Bill earlier in the Session, and we are on the threshold of a general election.
I share the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galloway) and recognise the strength of the case that he made as a spokesman for Liberty, reflecting our strong traditions in such matters, but I cannot accept his absolutist approach that all oppositions, whatever they may do in this country in preparation for an offence abroad, whether they be Algerian fundamentalists or the African National Congress in the 1960s, must by the very fact of being called oppositions be immune from prosecution here. There is a dilemma.
I accept what my hon. Friend said about the dangers under certain Attorneys-General, and it is certainly true that historically the Attorney-General has an ambiguous function, being both legal adviser to the Government and part of the Government, and that that dual function can be misconstrued abroad. Nevertheless, I do not accept his
absolutist approach; I think that he fails to appreciate the international nature of crime nowadays, especially drug trafficking, money laundering and paedophilia, or to understand the public concern about the nature of certain groups that find sanctuary in our country and abuse our laws.
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