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12.45 pm
Mr. Michael: The Minister and the Bill's promoter, the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson), have heard both support for the Bill and expressions of concern about how powers might be misused. We all understand the fears of hon. Members. In particular, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galloway) argued strongly that the powers should not be used to undermine the struggle for freedom and justice in different parts of the world. However, he also acknowledged that he would not want to defend evil and unprincipled villains who break the law and cause murder and mayhem around the world. We are united in our aspirations for the legislation.
The difficulty of knowing where to draw the line has been acknowledged by the Minister. Mafia killers in the United States were caught only on tax evasion charges. Those guilty of war crimes, and even genocide, could not be pursued in our courts until the War Crimes Act 1991 was passed. British men involved in the evil of child sex abuse abroad could not be pursued until last year, when the House passed legislation to allow their prosecution in our courts. British thugs involved in racial attacks abroad, organised and orchestrated in the United Kingdom, are still able to laugh at justice because they cannot be prosecuted in the United Kingdom. Those evils, sometimes cloaked under a false veil of interest in football, are among the nastiest activities. I know that hon. Members who are concerned that a line should be drawn would not want to defend such people. Those are the evils that we want to pursue and the Bill makes it possible to pursue them.
The Minister promised to introduce a mechanism to protect those whom hon. Members feel should not be pursued under the Bill. That was the only point of major
discussion in the debate. The Minister is therefore on the same side of the argument as the rest of us. I ask him to persuade the Home Secretary, and those responsible for legislation in another place, that the mechanism for that protection should be put into the Bill by an amendment. He should do all that he can to ensure that that mechanism is as effective as possible and provides as complete an assurance as possible. I know that the Minister will do his best. I am sure that hon. Members agree that he has the support of the House in seeking to make that an effective and genuine form of protection that will stand the test of time. If it is a mechanism that simply glosses over the problem, we shall have to return and amend the legislation, which would be a pity.
Sir Ivan Lawrence:
No one can seriously deny that the Bill is necessary, and not many people have done so. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson) on introducing the Bill and I thank him for inviting me to be one of its sponsors.
No civilised society can sit back and let serious crime be perpetrated on its land. No civilised society, particularly in this new world of internationalism, can sit back and see serious crime conceived in our land, or incited on our land, to be committed in another country. We all have to get together to ensure that our laws deal adequately with this new era of international crime.
I do not agree with the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson), who said that my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne did not fully understand the nature of international crime. I believe that he does. It is for that very reason that the Bill has been produced and we are debating it today.
Of course, no legislation is perfect. I have spent some time, for which I apologise--I hope that, in the end, it will turn out not to have been necessary--
Mr. Donald Anderson:
I tried to say precisely the opposite. Both the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson) and I have practised in matters that involve international terrorism. He and I are well aware of the globalisation of crime nowadays.
Sir Ivan Lawrence:
I am pleased that the meaning intended was the same as that which I intend, although the words may have appeared to come out differently.
The hon. Member for Swansea, East and I were concerned that acutely political legislation was being introduced which contained no provision for the instrument of this state, personified in law by the Attorney-General, to decide when a prosecution would be against the interests of this country.
I am greatly reassured by my hon. Friend the Minister's assurance that the matter will be further looked into and that the specific points that we have raised will be dealt
with. I know that I can give my full trust to the Government to deal with that adequately and to the reasonable satisfaction of everyone. That it is necessary to deal with the point, I have no doubt. There will be cases in which we will want to say, "Steady. It simply is not in the interests of this state to pursue a prosecution." That power must be vested in those who decide whether a prosecution should be brought. It is too late to take such a decision once the prosecution is in train.
Mr. Leigh:
We have had a series of excellent debates in Committee, this morning and on Second Reading. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson) on the care with which he considered all the amendments that we tabled in Committee and on Report. However, I am still worried about the Bill, although I understand why it is necessary and I do not oppose it.
I tabled some amendments for debate today, but they were not necessary, because my hon. Friend the Minister made a concession. My amendments would have ensured that the Director of Public Prosecutions was required always to consult the Attorney-General about prosecutions for political offences. My hon. Friend the Minister has now given a concession that he will so consult. Ultimately, whether a prosecution is brought will be a matter for political judgment.
The only warning that I give to the House is this. We are all united against international terrorism. It is an easy thing to say, a little like saying that we are all united in defence of the family; but life is not as simple as that. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galloway) gave a number of examples to prove that we are dealing with a grey area.
I understand that it is public policy of Her Majesty's Government and the American Government to ensure by all peaceful means, apparently, that Saddam Hussein is removed from power. As we know, however, there is no peaceful way in which to remove him from power. He is holding his subjects in a condition of absolute tyranny and his regime is maintained by terror. I suspect that it is a matter of public policy in this country and in America that those groups that are seeking to overthrow Saddam Hussein by terrorist means should be covertly supported. I suspect that everyone in the House would like Saddam Hussein to be removed by terrorist means, but that, of course, would be an offence under the Bill, which is soon to be an Act.
The truth is, and we all know it, that now that the Attorney-General will be involved--none of us suggested that; it is a political decision--he will be taking political decisions. If a group operating from London were
discovered to be fomenting terrorism against Iraq, I strongly suspect that once the Bill is enacted its members would not be prosecuted.
Mr. Donald Anderson:
If a safeguard of the nature suggested by the Government were not built into the Bill, it would of course be possible for a private citizen to initiate a prosecution. That would cause considerable problems.
Mr. Leigh:
I accept that point. I am glad that the Minister has made various concessions today, but I suspect that, if a terrorist group were discovered to be inciting or fomenting terrorism against Saudi Arabia, its members would be prosecuted under the Bill.
The thought that I should like to leave with the House is whether the Bill is in keeping with our traditions of creating law. Is the type of decision proposed by the Bill one in which the Attorney-General or the DPP should be involved? Surely a person should be prosecuted because he has committed or allegedly committed an illegal act. We should not indulge in a cherry-picking exercise where the Attorney-General is involved in highly politicised decisions, influenced not by what is right or wrong in terms of jurisprudence, but by what is right or wrong in terms of international diplomacy and British national interest.
Hon. Members may say that I am simply wrong and ask why the Attorney-General should not be involved in such decisions. In any event, that undoubtedly will happen. I should like to leave this thought with the House: it is a strange sort of law for us to pass on a Friday morning which will result in some terrorists being prosecuted and others not being prosecuted. That is something about which we should be worried.
We should also be worried about the sheer practicalities of the Bill. For example, what about the problems of collecting evidence both at home and abroad and the disparity in the resources of the prosecution and the defence about which I spoke before? What about the difficulties of adducing evidence in a British court in front of a British jury relating to something that happened in a faraway country of which we know little, which has a system of law totally alien to the British concept of justice and of which we have little conception?
Those serious points must be further considered. The difficulty we face is that, for reasons of British national interest, it is useful for Her Majesty's Government to explain to friendly foreign powers that they have the means to prosecute people who may be causing trouble in this country. Fundamentally, that is what the Bill is about. Such powers may well be in the British national interest, which is why I am not prepared to oppose the Bill. I must defer to the judgment of the Foreign Secretary and of the Home Secretary on those matters.
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