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Mr. Michael: I apologise if the Minister is about to come to this, but will he comment on representation in NCIS, the National Crime Squad and in respect of other central functions?
Mr. Kirkhope: I wanted to return to that issue in the debates on later clauses where it is more applicable. If the hon. Gentleman can contain himself, I shall comment later.
We are aiming at a provisional date of late spring 1998 for the Bill's commencement. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe for promoting the Bill. I commend the clause to the House.
Sir Raymond Whitney:
I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for clarifying the points raised in the debate. They were legitimate points and I am grateful to the hon. Members who raised them. I am grateful also for their support for the general principle of the Bill.
Mr. Michael:
I confess that I was surprised that the Minister did not respond to my point because I thought that it came up under clause 1. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will deal with it, or the Minister may like to intervene. Clause 1(3)(a) provides for chief officers in England and Wales to recognise the trade union status of the Police Federation for England and Wales. The interpretation appears to be that that does not cover NCIS or the National Crime Squad. I asked whether the wording covered the chiefs of those organisations. I hope that the hon. Gentleman or the Minister can clarify that, and also the point in relation to the central services. The matter arises under clause 1--not later, as the Minister suggests.
Sir Raymond Whitney:
It is my understanding that that is the case, but I will ensure, in conjunction with the Home Office, that it is clarified. My hon. Friend the Minister may have a further comment to make at this stage on that important issue.
I reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant), whose views on the European Court of Justice may not precisely coincide with my own, that I have every optimism that there will be no problems with the ECJ. The Bill is highly beneficial for all concerned.
Mr. Kirkhope:
I thought that I had covered the point a few moments ago, but I am clearly being told that I did not. I thought that I said clearly that arrangements would be made for recognition of the police representative bodies as trade unions in the National Criminal Intelligence Service and the National Crime Squad. If I have not covered that point, perhaps the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth can explain--[Interruption.] I am sorry; I realise that he cannot do so because I am intervening in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Sir R. Whitney). In any event, I thought that I had covered the point. If I have not, I will return to it in due course.
Sir Raymond Whitney:
I am most grateful to my hon. Friend.
Mr. Michael:
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is facilitating a useful discussion. The fact that a body will be recognised as a trade union in respect of NCIS and the National Crime Squad is clear. That will presumably also apply in respect of other central functions. What is not clear is the position of the Police Federation. The position is made clear in respect of the Home Office forces, as the Minister described them--the police forces of
Sir Raymond Whitney:
It is certainly my understanding that the representation will be the same. The point will have to be considered carefully again as the Bill proceeds, we hope, to the other place. Any possible lingering uncertainty--I believe that the points have been clarified--should be resolved.
Mr. Kirkhope:
I understand that the position for NCIS is that representation of the federation and other bodies will be covered in regulations under section 2A of the 1974 Act.
Sir Raymond Whitney:
I am most grateful for that further clarification.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Peter Atkinson (Hexham):
I welcome the Bill, but I should like to address a comment to my hon. Friend the Minister. When he draws up his guidance to chief constables on the workings of the legislation, he should deal with the question of police houses. As my hon. Friend knows, in rural areas of Northumberland we have police houses, which sometimes have a notice outside saying "Northumbria Constabulary". I want to be certain about the position of those who live in police houses in terms of whether they are on or off duty. If someone knocks on the door, are those living there deemed to be off duty or on duty? The Minister will be aware that officers who live in police houses are not necessarily posted to the area where those police houses are located. That may cause confusion. If my hon. Friend cannot give me an answer now, I should be grateful if he will consider the matter when he draws up the guidance.
Mr. Fabricant:
This is the clause about which I have the gravest reservations. It states that a new subsection should be added to the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 stating that
I understand that polls are never accurate, including political opinion polls, but I conducted a quick straw poll among the police at the Palace of Westminster. I was reassured to find out that the provisions will not apply to the Palace, but one police officer said that if they did he would go for early retirement. Another asked whether if someone attacked him with a broken bottle on which there was a little bit of dirt, he would have to walk away because he would otherwise be in breach of the health and safety regulations.
On a more serious note, in Police Review of 4 October a number of specific questions were asked by Alan Beckley about the difficulties which could arise if the provisions were made statutory. He wrote that those problems could include
Those problems have not been properly addressed by the Bill. I hope that either my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Sir R. Whitney) or my hon. Friend the Minister will be able to reassure me and, indeed, the police officers at the Palace of Westminster who seem to feel so strongly about the matter.
Mr. Kirkhope:
It is, of course, correct that clause 2 extends the definitions of "work" and "at work" in section 52 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974. It provides that a constable is only to be regarded at work
In such a case, where the officer is acting outside the immediate direction and the immediate control of his senior officers--it is a difficult area--it would be unreasonable for the chief officer to be liable under the 1974 Act. The clause simply makes that point clear. It certainly does not affect the officer's position in any way in relation to any other benefits and support to which he might be entitled.
I hope that that offers some reassurance to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Staffordshire. It is important to remember that officers have a range of entitlements, benefits and assistance to deal with such matters. To make that assistance statutory and subject to the terms of the 1974 Act in the circumstances that I have described is regarded as unreasonable. I hope that my hon. Friend can accept that point.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 3 to 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported, without amendment; read the Third time, and passed.
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
"a person holding the office of constable is at work throughout the time when he is on duty, but not otherwise; and".
In other words, when the officer is on duty it is then that those provisions should apply.
"the lack of experience on which to base guidance to forces on how to make risk assessments for all aspects of police work (although generic risk assessments have been prepared)
He argued that that was not a practical thing to do under the terms of statutory regulation. Mr. Beckley also referred to
providing employees, including police officers, with a safe place to work
advising officers who find themselves in life-threatening incidents on how to deal with the situation".
"the action officers should take when faced with danger (retreating or intervening?)"--
and--
"the potential conflict between the operational independence of chief police officers and the powers of Health and Safety Executive inspectors"
That article reflects the concerns that have been expressed by police officers.
"throughout the time when he is on duty."
The effect of that is that the duties that the Act imposes upon employers to safeguard the health and safety of employees will not apply when a constable decides to exercise his constabulary powers at times when he is off duty. For example, he may be travelling home on the tube and see someone threatening another passenger with a knife or a gun. In the ensuing fight, the officer could be injured, and the question might arise as to whether he had been adequately protected under the health and safety regulations.
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