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Mr. Hogg: That flows from what I have said. [Hon. Members: "Oh no."] Oh yes, it does. [Hon. Members: "Oh no, it doesn't."] Oh yes, it does. Our application is general, but it works with particular effect in Northern Ireland, for all the reasons that I have mentioned. I certainly intend to support the case of Northern Ireland--apart from anything else, I come from a family that knows and lived in Northern Ireland for many a generation. I feel strongly about the Province of Northern Ireland.
Rev. Ian Paisley (North Antrim): I am sure that the House and the right hon. and learned Gentleman know that this week there will be complete chaos and turmoil in Europe--that there is a censure motion to sack the entire Commission on the issue that we are discussing today. I am sure that, keeping that in mind, he wants to do something that would be of real practical value to the farmers of Northern Ireland.
Will the Minister say today clearly to the farmers of Northern Ireland that, as they are ahead in the matter of meat and its standards, and as the Commissioner, and the President of the Council, said that an application for Northern Ireland was needed first, he will make that application--not to do down any other part of this kingdom, but to start the ball rolling, and to take up what the Commissioner has asked for?
Mr. Hogg:
The hon. Gentleman is right. He will not find a more formidable supporter of the case of Northern Ireland than himself and the right hon. Member for Upper Bann. Of course the case for Northern Ireland is powerful; that is precisely why I drafted the certified herds scheme in the way that I did. It is general in its application--it applies throughout the United Kingdom--but the case for Northern Ireland is very powerful and the Commissioner knows that and will find that I urge it.
Mr. Hogg:
I have given way about 12 times. Now I shall make progress. I want to say a word about the
Consumption of prime beef in Britain has fallen less than in many other European countries. Overall consumption is about 15 per cent. below trend, but consumption of prime cuts is very close to pre-crisis levels. That firmness in the market is in part an effect of the over-30-months scheme and the public's confidence in the measures that have been introduced to ensure the quality and safety of British beef.
We have invested huge sums to support the beef industry and some essential and related industries. The overall commitment, domestic and European, is around £3.5 billion thus far. In doing so, we have made an investment in public health--
Madam Speaker:
Order. The Minister has said that he is not giving way for the moment. I ask Members to give him three or four minutes to make some progress, and then they may question him.
Mr. Hogg:
I was dealing with the overall financial commitment we have made, domestic and European. It is around £3.5 billion thus far. We have made an investment in public health, in agriculture, in the countryside and in our future. It is the clearest possible evidence of the Tory party's commitment to rural Britain.
Mr. Sheerman:
The Minister is dwelling on the cost. That £3.5 billion could have built so many hospitals and paid so many nurses. We could have done so much with that £3.5 billion. He seems to be saying that it was a good investment. Has he seen the House of Commons Library figures? The cost is not just £3.5 billion to this country. A 10 per cent. reduction in demand since last March has meant £10 billion for the rest of Europe. What insanity has he visited on our country and the rest of Europe since last March?
Mr. Hogg:
The implication in that remark is that the hon. Gentleman would not have supported the beef industry, would not have wanted his party to underpin the market in this country, and would have let the farmers go to the wall. That is the implication in his remarks, and I reject them.
Mr. Hogg:
No, I am going to make some progress. I want to address some of the criticisms that have been made of my conduct over the past 12 months.
Some say that I should not have come to Parliament with the information that I had received from SEAC. Some say that I should first have gone to the European Council, to the European Parliament or to the Commission. Those things are frequently said by people who also say that I should have given evidence to the Committee of the European Parliament.
Such criticisms undermine the principle that British Ministers are accountable to, and only to, this Parliament and through it the British people. Once I had received the advice from SEAC that BSE was the most likely cause of
the new strain of CJD, my clear and absolute duty was to communicate that information to the House and to the public. That was my duty, and that I did.
The suggestion that I should have gone to Europe before giving the facts to the House is preposterous. It is a denial of every constitutional principle that I have always sought to uphold. Had I done so, I would have been rightly condemned the length and breadth of the country.
For the same kind of reason, I decided that it would be wrong to appear before the committee of inquiry established by the European Parliament. British Ministers are held to account here in Westminster in debates such as this, in statements on the Floor of the House and in Select Committees. All of this I have done--and many times too.
I do not accept that British Ministers can be summoned by Members of the European Parliament to testify as to matters that are the preserve of this House. There should be co-operation most certainly, the supply of information most certainly, and testimony by officials by all means. We did all that. Indeed, when the Committee came to London, I invited its members to lunch--which I thought might be more agreeable--but they declined. Once one concedes that Members of the European Parliament can summon a British Minister, one is derogating from the sovereignty of this place.
Mrs. Anne Campbell:
The right hon. and learned Gentleman will acknowledge the importance of sound scientific research. Will he confirm that the Government almost eliminated research into BSE and scrapie in the late 1980s? Will he further confirm that the foresight panel reports, which define the Government's priorities for the future, make absolutely no mention of scrapie, BSE, prions or spongiform encephalopathy? Does the Minister believe that that represents setting the right priorities for the future? Do the Government appreciate the enormity of what they have done?
Mr. Hogg:
As the hon. Lady was reading in her intervention, I think that she might have done somewhat better than that. In the current year, we are increasing very substantially the research moneys being expended on BSE. One of the first things that I did upon the appointment of Professor Pattison was to discuss with him whether he could identify any shortcomings in our research programmes. He was not able to do so at that time, and we shall seek to address any shortcomings he may identify subsequently.
Mr. Hogg:
My hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Mr. Shaw) seeks to intervene.
Mr. Shaw:
I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for giving way, as the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Dr. Strang) refused to do so. Does my right hon. and learned Friend believe that the press release that the hon. Gentleman issued on 22 March 1996 has been properly accounted for? It is interesting to note that the Labour party director who issued the press release has since resigned from her job--perhaps because she was so embarrassed about that Labour press release, which did so much damage to the British beef industry and set in
Mr. Hogg:
My hon. Friend makes a very substantial point. There is no doubt that the advice given by the hon. Member for Peckham (Ms Harman) led directly to the withdrawal of beef from many schools throughout the country: a profoundly damaging consequence. I shall now make some progress.
I turn now to money. So far, a total of about £3.5 billion has been committed. Some of the expenditure is met by Europe--and we are grateful--but the bulk of the expenditure will ultimately fall on the United Kingdom taxpayer. In this area, I face two criticisms, which are mutually contradictory. For example, the Leader of the Opposition has said--most recently on Thursday--that the Government are spending too much on BSE-related expenditure. We heard echoes of that position this afternoon. However, many of his hon. Friends say that we are not spending enough. To those who say that we spend too much, I reply, "What would you like us to cut away?"
Mr. John Prescott (Kingston upon Hull, East):
You.
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