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Mr. Howard: I agree strongly with my right hon. and hon. Friends who have said that those who currently engage in the activity of shooting are overwhelmingly law-abiding, decent people. I entirely understand the concerns that have been expressed at the extent to which they are likely to be affected by the legislation.
I entirely reject the argument advanced by the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, North (Mr. Henderson) that a majority of those who voted for the amendment in another place, or my hon. Friends, were merely seeking to defend vested interests. That is very far from the case, and the allegation was unworthy.
I also reject the hon. Gentleman's argument that we should be motivated in placing this or any other legislation on the statute book primarily by a consideration of where the balance of popular opinion lies. That is certainly a factor to be taken into account, but it should not be the only factor. I thought that the intervention on him by my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir P. Cormack) had much force. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman gave my hon. Friend a satisfactory response.
Mr. Henderson:
Perhaps I can give a more satisfactory response now. That was not what I was saying. I argued that the House must do what is right and practical, but that in this instance, public opinion demands that we take action quickly, which is why it is important that we proceed with the Bill now.
Mr. Howard:
As the hon. Gentleman says, we have to do what is right and practical. Therefore, the argument turns on the difference between the point of view expressed in questions put to me by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory)--on which he expanded in his speech--and by other hon. Members, and my response to them. My right hon. Friend mentioned my response to this point in the debate, I think, on Second Reading, but he did not read on. Had he done so, he would have found that, at that early stage, I dealt with the essential argument that if disassembly were accepted, there would be no satisfactory way of controlling the illicit use of parts of guns to make a whole gun. My hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Sir J. Wiggin) suggested that the Government had introduced that argument at a later stage. That is not the case; it was part of our argument from the very beginning.
The point is perhaps most explicitly and succinctly expressed by the Association of Chief Police Officers of England and Wales, which stated that
Mr. Marlow:
What do the chief constables mean when they say that disassembly cannot be policed? Does it mean that some people might not abide by the law and would therefore break it? If they broke the law on disassembly, they could break it by holding guns that they were not entitled to have. Where does that take us?
Mr. Howard:
I do not think that my hon. Friend was present for the whole debate. That point was made earlier by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells and others. As I sought to explain in answer to their interventions, my belief, which is shared by ACPO, is that there are those who will be tempted by the ease of fitting spare parts into another part of a gun who would not necessarily buy illegal guns. That is the judgment on which the amendments turn.
Mr. Howard:
I accept that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells may take a different view on where the balance of judgment lies. I have put before the House the basis on which I have reached mine.
Before I conclude, I want to reply to the hon. Member for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook), who asked a specific question about police training, which was dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State in another place. She said quite unequivocally that both the Ministry of Defence and ACPO agreed with the Government's assessment that training for the requisite standards of proficiency would continue to be provided for police and the personnel of the armed services when they are on duty. That is what happens.
Mr. Howard:
I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's view that it is insufficient, nor did ACPO.
I have attempted to identify the judgment which lies at the heart of the decision that the House must take on the amendment. I invite hon. Members to pay particular attention to the judgment of ACPO, that disassembly is incapable of being policed. I invite hon. Members to disagree with the two amendments that were passed in another place.
Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment:--
The House divided: Ayes 394, Noes 115.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly agreed to.
Lords amendment accordingly disagreed to.
"disassembly is incapable of being policed."
Coming from that source, that opinion is not lightly to be set aside. I fully accept that the balance of the argument on the amendments is a difficult judgment. I fully accept that it is possible for others to reach a legitimate judgment on the question that differs from that of the Government, which I commend to the House. However, it would be difficult for someone with the ultimate responsibility for recommending to the House the decision that it should take to put aside the careful judgment of ACPO, reached in such unequivocal terms. I ask hon. Members to take careful note of that judgment and give it proper and full weight when they decide how to vote.
AYES
Adams, Mrs Irene
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)
Alton, David
Amess, David
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)
Arbuthnot, James
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Ashton, Joseph
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Austin-Walker, John
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Barron, Kevin
Bates, Michael
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Bell, Stuart
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blunkett, David
Boateng, Paul
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia
Bowis, John
Bradley, Keith
Brandreth, Gyles
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Canavan, Dennis
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)
Carttiss, Michael
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clapham, Michael
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth
(Rushcliffe)
Clelland, David
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Congdon, David
Connarty, Michael
Conway, Derek
Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Ms Jean
Couchman, James
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
Cran, James
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John
Cunningham, Ms Roseanna
(Perth Kinross)
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Curry, Rt Hon David
Darling, Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C)
Davies, Chris (Littleborough)
Davis, Rt Hon David (Boothferry)
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Dewar, Rt Hon Donald
Dixon, Rt Hon Don
Donohoe, Brian H
Douglas-Hamilton,
Rt Hon Lord James
Dowd, Jim
Duncan, Alan
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eastham, Ken
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Evans, John (St Helens N)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Faulds, Andrew
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foulkes, George
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Rt Hon Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Fraser, John
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Fyfe, Mrs Maria
Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan
Garnier, Edward
George, Bruce
Gerrard, Neil
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Godman, Dr Norman A
Golding, Mrs Llin
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Gordon, Ms Mildred
Graham, Thomas
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Grocott, Bruce
Gummer, Rt Hon John
Gunnell, John
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hain, Peter
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Hardy, Peter
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Rt Hon Sir Edward
Henderson, Doug
Hendry, Charles
Heppell, John
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (Grantham)
Home Robertson, John
Horam, John
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Robert (Ab'd'n N)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Adam
Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Jackson, Mrs Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Jenkins, Brian D (SE Staffs)
Jones, Barry (Alyn & D'side)
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Jones, Robert B (W Herts)
Jowell, Ms Tessa
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Keen, Alan
Kennedy, Charles (Ross C & S)
Kennedy, Mrs Jane (Broadgreen)
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Kynoch, George
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Legg, Barry
Lewis, Terry
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Litherland, Robert
Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Lord, Michael
Loyden, Eddie
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Lynne, Ms Liz
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, John
MacKay, Andrew
McKelvey, William
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLeish, Henry
Maclennan, Robert
McLoughlin, Patrick
McMaster, Gordon
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
McNamara, Kevin
MacShane, Denis
Madden, Max
Maddock, Mrs Diana
Madel, Sir David
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Mandelson, Peter
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, Michael J (Springburn)
Martlew, Eric
Mates, Michael
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Maxton, John
Meacher, Michael
Meale, Alan
Mellor, Rt Hon David
Merchant, Piers
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Milburn, Alan
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Morgan, Rhodri
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)
Moss, Malcolm
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Paul
Needham, Rt Hon Richard
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)
Norris, Steve
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Brien, William (Normanton)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Oppenheim, Phillip
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, Rt Hon John
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Pearson, Ian
Pickles, Eric
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Powell, Sir Raymond (Ogmore)
Prentice, Mrs Bridget
(Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, Rt Hon John
Primarolo, Ms Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Dr John
Rendel, David
Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowe, Andrew
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Sackville, Tom
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Salmond, Alex
Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Simpson, Alan
Smith, Chris (Islington S)
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)
Soames, Nicholas
Soley, Clive
Speed, Sir Keith
Spellar, John
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Ms Rachel
(Dunfermline W)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Steinberg, Gerry
Stephen, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Strang, Dr Gavin
Straw, Jack
Streeter, Gary
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Sykes, John
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Touhig, Don
Townsend, Sir Cyril (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trickett, Jon
Trotter, Neville
Turner, Dennis
Vaz, Keith
Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Walden, George
Wallace, James
Ward, John
Wareing, Robert N
Waterson, Nigel
Watson, Mike
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Welsh, Andrew
Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Wicks, Malcolm
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Wigley, Dafydd
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Winnick, David
Wise, Mrs Audrey
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Worthington, Tony
Wray, Jimmy
Wright, Dr Tony
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mr. Richard Ottaway and
Mr. Matthew Carrington.
NOES
Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Barnes, Harry
Batiste, Spencer
Beggs, Roy
Bendall, Vivian
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Body, Sir Richard
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Budgen, Nicholas
Butcher, John
Cann, Jamie
Carlisle, John (Luton N)
Cash, William
Churchill, Mr
Colvin, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Dalyell, Tam
Duncan Smith, Iain
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Gallie, Phil
Gapes, Mike
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Gill, Christopher
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gorst, Sir John
Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Grylls, Sir Michael
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hannam, Sir John
Harris, David
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hayes, Jerry
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hicks, Sir Robert
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Hoey, Kate
Howell, Rt Hon David (Guildf'd)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hunter, Andrew
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith,
Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Johnston, Sir Russell
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom
Kirkwood, Archy
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
Mans, Keith
Marek, Dr John
Marland, Paul
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moate, Sir Roger
Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Porter, David
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Roe, Mrs Marion
Ross, William (E Lond'y)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Sims, Sir Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Skinner, Dennis
Spearing, Nigel
Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)
Mr. Tony Marlow and
Mr. Den Dover.
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