| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Wilson: It is obviously a narrow and important point to define, but although the community interest and the public interest might not be synonymous terms, they are certainly not contradictory. If decisions by the trustees are made on the basis of language, it is important for the Minister to define those terms, particularly the use of the word "public". The definition may go beyond the community that is directly affected, so is it the local authority or, in the case of Eigg--
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes): Order. That is a very long intervention. I think that the hon. Gentleman has made his point.
Mr. Sproat: It is a fair point. It is certainly true that the community interest and the national interest are not synonymous. It could be that on occasions they would not be in conflict, but as I understand it, on this occasion there was doubt that the crofters' interest was synonymous with the national interest. That was the
sticking point. It is up to the trustees of the NHMF and the heritage lottery fund to make a judgment based on their interpretation of that interest.
The hon. Gentleman asked whether I could give a sharper, clearer definition. The answer is no. It would require a legal, forensic use of language that I cannot guarantee to produce off the top of my head, and it would also vitiate the principle that the judgment must be made by the trustees. Having taken expert and legal advice, which is what they nearly always do, the trustees believe that there could be a conflict between the narrow but, in the view of Opposition Members, good interest of the crofters and the national interest. To answer the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's question, the national heritage memorial fund would be looking for an access far more general than the community and the local authority area to which he referred.
Ms Roseanna Cunningham:
That narrow point is the nub of the matter. As the community interest had 50 per cent. representation on the trust board, potentially in future the community, the Scottish Wildlife trust and the Highland council could disagree. The decision was taken because the community was looking for 50 per cent. Had there been only 25 per cent. interest, it might have been okay. Is the Minister saying that any such application where the community is looking for 50 per cent. or more will always be ruled out?
Mr. Sproat:
No. I would say neither that nor reducing it to 25 per cent. would guarantee that it would be acceptable. It would be up to the trustees to judge for themselves whether any percentage was benefiting a particular or sectional interest to the disbenefit of the national interest. That is a matter that the trustees must decide for themselves in the specific circumstances of any application. On this occasion, the 50 per cent. to which the hon. Lady referred was present, and they decided that it was not in the national interest.
I hope that, in the light of what I have said, the hon Lady will agree that the amendment she proposes would not serve the purpose that she seeks. Given that the list of heritage "interests" specified in new section 3 is already rather long, I would be most reluctant to extend it any further without good reason. The risk in adding further entries to the list is not just that it would become impossibly unwieldy but that the omission of any particular specialism might then be a source of misunderstanding and concern.
Ms Cunningham:
I shall not add anything further, but I must insist on the amendment.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 99, Noes 169.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
Order for Third Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.--[Mr. Sproat.]
AYES
Adams, Mrs Irene
Alton, David
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Barnes, Harry
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Betts, Clive
Boateng, Paul
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Canavan, Dennis
Chidgey, David
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clelland, David
Coffey, Ms Ann
Corston, Ms Jean
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)
Cunningham, Ms Roseanna
(Perth Kinross)
Dafis, Cynog
Dalyell, Tam
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Dewar, Rt Hon Donald
Dixon, Rt Hon Don
Donohoe, Brian H
Eastham, Ken
Ennis, Jeff
Faulds, Andrew
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Fyfe, Mrs Maria
Godman, Dr Norman A
Golding, Mrs Llin
Graham, Thomas
Gunnell, John
Home Robertson, John
Hoyle, Doug
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Janner, Greville
Johnston, Sir Russell
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Keen, Alan
Kennedy, Mrs Jane (Broadgreen)
Kilfoyle, Peter
Kirkwood, Archy
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)
Loyden, Eddie
Lynne, Ms Liz
McFall, John
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclennan, Robert
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Marek, Dr John
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Martin, Michael J (Springburn)
Meale, Alan
Michael, Alun
Milburn, Alan
Morley, Elliot
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Paul
O'Brien, William (Normanton)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
Pendry, Tom
Pike, Peter L
Powell, Sir Raymond (Ogmore)
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Dr John
Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thurnham, Peter
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Touhig, Don
Turner, Dennis
Tyler, Paul
Walley, Ms Joan
Wigley, Dafydd
Wilson, Brian
Wray, Jimmy
Young, David (Bolton SE)
Mr. Elfyn Llwyd and
Mr. Andrew Welsh.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Alexander, Richard
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Batiste, Spencer
Beggs, Roy
Bellingham, Henry
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowis, John
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Carlisle, John (Luton N)
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)
Carrington, Matthew
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Clappison, James
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth
(Rushcliffe)
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)
Davis, Rt Hon David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
Elletson, Harold
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gallie, Phil
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Grylls, Sir Michael
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hendry, Charles
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Jessel, Toby
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Knox, Sir David
Kynoch, George
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Luff, Peter
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Merchant, Piers
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Needham, Rt Hon Richard
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, Rt Hon John
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Porter, David
Powell, William (Corby)
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)
Rowe, Andrew
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)
Sims, Sir Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)
Speed, Sir Keith
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Streeter, Gary
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Townsend, Sir Cyril (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Tredinnick, David
Twinn, Dr Ian
Viggers, Peter
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Waterson, Nigel
Wells, Bowen
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)
Wood, Timothy
Mr. Roger Knapman and
Mr. Sebastian Coe.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |