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Mr. Michael: I am grateful to the Minister for his response, which acknowledged that basically there is an inconsistency. It seems that there is an inconsistency in one direction in the Bill, and we have sought at least to install fairness. That is all that we have sought to do. I should make it quite clear that we have not tried to go beyond what the Bill can do. As the Minister says, there is an argument in respect of the age of consent, but we have not sought to address that in any way, and I hope that he was not suggesting that we have.
Had the amendments been accepted, they would have taken us a step nearer fairness, balance and the protection of children. As the Minister clearly does not intend to accept them, I ask him to keep thinking and to talk to his colleagues in another place in the hope that we shall see fairness in the Bill before it completes its passage through Parliament.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. Maclean:
I beg to move amendment No. 32, in page 13, leave out lines 30 and 31.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendment No. 33.
Amendment No. 10, in page 13, line 36, after '(x)', insert
Government amendments Nos. 34 to 39.
Amendment No. 7, in page 13, line 45, at end insert
Mr. Maclean:
The broad purpose of this group of amendments is to align the Scottish offences with those in the list for England and Wales. Clearly it is important that there should be as close an alignment as possible between the two jurisdictions, so that offenders in different parts of the United Kingdom will be treated in the same way for registration purposes.
Half the amendments in the group cover homosexual offences, where we think it right to remove from the qualifying offences the Scottish offences that deal with procuring homosexual acts between two other men and those covering consensual adult homosexual activities. The amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall) and others are in similar terms. We clearly share the same objective of ensuring that there is parity of treatment between homosexual offenders on either side of the border.
Similar considerations apply to exclusion of the procuring offences involving women, which would not trigger registration south of the border, and to the inclusion of the Scottish offence of unlawful sexual intercourse with a girl below the age of 13 where the offender is a teenager. In the amendments we have sought to achieve consistency across the jurisdictions.
Amendment No. 34 takes on board the concern expressed by the hon. Member for Dumbarton in Committee that there was an anomaly as between a person convicted of having intercourse with a step-child over the age of 18 and someone convicted of incest with a blood relative. The amendment cures that anomaly, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing it to the Government's attention.
I commend the whole series of Government amendments to the House and I invite the hon. Gentleman not to press his own amendments.
Mr. McFall:
I shall not press amendments Nos. 7 and 10. I thank the Minister very much for his consideration of the points made in Committee. When the matter was put to the Scottish Office there seemed to be little forthcoming, but in Committee we had a very fruitful discussion. Those who are concerned about the issues in Scotland are certainly very pleased with the action that the Government have taken.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendments made: No. 33, in page 13, line 36, at beginning insert "subsection (5) of".
No. 34, in page 13, line 39, leave out '(vi)' and insert '(ii)'.
No. 35, in page 13, line 40, at end insert--
No. 36, in page 13, line 43, leave out
and insert 'paragraph (a)(viii) does'.
No. 37, in page 13, line 44, leave out second 'and'.
No. 38, in page 13, line 45, after "apply" insert "in the case of an offence in contravention of subsection (3) of section 5 (unlawful sexual intercourse with a girl over 13 but under 16)'.
No. 39, in page 13, line 45, at end insert
Mr. Michael:
I beg to move amendment No. 24, in page 15, line 37, at end insert--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments Nos. 2 and 3.
Amendment No. 26, in page 15, line 42, at end insert--
Amendment No. 27, in page 15, line 42, at end insert--
Amendment No. 28, in page 15, line 42, at end insert--
Amendment No. 29, in page 15, line 42, at end insert--
Amendment No. 30, in page 15, line 42, at end insert--
Amendment No. 31, in page 15, line 42, at end insert--
Government amendments Nos. 4 and 5.
Mr. Michael:
I shall be very brief, because we raised the issues addressed in the amendments in Committee. I tabled the amendments because of the undertaking given by the Minister to consider the issues further. I hope that he will be able to respond positively. The amendments would add additional offences to the list of offences in schedule 2, because it would be anomalous if they were not included. They include administering drugs to obtain or facilitate intercourse; assault with intent to commit buggery; the abduction of a girl by force; the abduction of an unmarried girl under 16 from parent or guardian; causing prostitution of girls; the detention of a girl in brothel or other premises; permitting a girl under 13 to use premises for intercourse; and causing or
Mr. Kirkhope:
It is worth recalling the origin of the list in schedule 2. It is substantially the same as that contained in the Sexual Offences (Conspiracy and Incitement) Act 1996--that is to say, the offences of child sexual abuse in respect of which the UK courts now have jurisdiction when conspiracies or incitements take place in this country to commit those offences abroad. In a sense, that Act created a standard list of the acts of child sex abuse likely to be committed by sex tourists, and I do not recall that there were concerns that that list was incomplete or had missed out significant offences.
In drafting the Bill, we followed that earlier list, but we decided to add the main child pornography offences. The member states of the European Union agreed last autumn, in the aftermath of the terrible Belgian case, on a joint action to combat the trafficking in women and children for sexual exploitation. Taking extra-territorial jurisdiction over child pornography offences was one of the provisions in that agreement, in recognition of the link--whether causal or not--that often exists between the sexual abuse of children and child pornography.
'subsections (5) and (6) of'.
'; and
(e) paragraphs (a)(viii) and (d)(x) do not apply where every person involved in the offence was 18 or over and was a willing participant.'.
'( ) paragraphs (a)(viii) and (d)(x) above do not apply where every person involved in the offence, other than the offender, was 18 or over and was a willing participant;'.
'paragraphs (a)(viii) and (d)(x) do'
'and
( ) paragraph (d)(x) does not apply where the offender was under 20 and--
(i) where the offence involved an act of sodomy contrary to subsection (5) of section 13, every other person involved in the offence was a willing participant; or
(ii) the offence involved an act of gross indecency or shameless indecency contrary to the said subsection (5).'.--[Mr. Maclean.]
'(ia) section 4 (Administering drugs to obtain or facilitate intercourse);'.
'(vii) section 17 (Abduction of a girl by force).'.
'(vii) section 20 (Abduction of an unmarried girl under 16 from parent or guardian).'.
'(vii) section 22A (Causing prostitution of girls).'.
'(vii) section 24 (Detention of girl in brothel or other premises).'.
'(vii) section 25 (Permitting girl under 13 to use premises for intercourse).'.
'(vii) section 28 (Causing or encouraging prostitution of, intercourse with or indecent assault on a girl under 16).'.
9.45 pm
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