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Dr. Godman: In view of his criticism of the Law Society, does my hon. Friend nevertheless agree that those
persons who have performed the role of lay observer have done so with remarkable distinction and that that role is close to that of the ombudsman?
Mr. Foulkes: I certainly accept that, but I would be straying from the amendment if I pursued the point.
What worries me is that the people whom I represented were not getting all the information. Disclosure of information and issues of confidentiality are extremely important in such cases. At one point, I had to take a deputation of legal clients to the Law Society to get it to look into the problems relating to Graeme Adam. The Law Society's attitude was unbelievable--implying that it was the clients who were mistaken and that the lawyer was in the right. In the end, in the case of Graeme Adam we found that the opposite was true.
I hesitate to go into detail, but confidentiality is also important in cases of child abuse or sexual abuse. Such cases are being highlighted currently by the Daily Record. I have great respect for that newspaper, but it is ironic that it is now highlighting the problems of child abuse and the threat to young children from convicted paedophiles. My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow will remember the Ayrshire child abuse case, which I dealt with some months ago. On that occasion the Daily Record took the other side of the argument. I suppose that it is the privilege of the fourth estate to take such a contradictory line.
I have made a complaint to the Law Society about a Glasgow lawyer, Mr. Paul Burns, who made statements during the Ayrshire child abuse case which were critical of social workers in Ayrshire and which I believe were unjustified. The Law Society has rejected that complaint and said that I now have the opportunity of going to the Scottish legal services ombudsman, which I am considering.
When one complains about a lawyer, there is always the feeling that one will not get anywhere and that the Law Society will not look at the case in detail. As my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow said, the legal profession in Scotland is a relatively small and closed profession. There is no better example of a closed shop, especially the advocates.
Mr. Thomas Graham (Renfrew, West and Inverclyde):
My hon. Friend will know that I worked in a law company for five years and I saw one side of it. However, as a regional councillor and now as a Member of Parliament, I have met many people who feel that the legal profession is a fortress that cannot be penetrated and that one needs to be towing the Bank of Scotland to be able to afford to purchase justice. Using the ombudsman is the right course for folk with a problem, but ordinary men and women in the street are terrified; they believe that lawyers are God's gift to man and that one cannot have a go at them. In my constituency, there was a horrifying case of a person who was impoverished by over £100,000; he was totally innocent, but the Law Society could not do anything about it.
Mr. Foulkes:
I understand only too well the problems that my hon. Friend has experienced.
I just want to express my concerns. One puts a great deal of trust in a lawyer, whether one is buying a house or dealing with other legal issues. The profession is a
closed shop and we have to go to lawyers to get things done. Therefore, it is of paramount importance to trust a lawyer. I believe that that trust has broken down in Scotland in a number of cases in the past few years. Many of my constituents are concerned about the legal profession. It needs to pull its socks up.
The Law Society needs to ensure that complaints against solicitors are dealt with quickly, efficiently and effectively, and its consideration of them must be seen to be as fair as possible. That means something different from self-regulation. An independent element needs to be introduced in a decisive way. I hope that the Minister will take account of my points when dealing with the amendment.
Mr. Ian Davidson (Glasgow, Govan):
In view of the criticisms about lawyers and the Law Society, will the Minister accept that one way of resolving the difficulties would be to abolish the Law Society's powers to exercise self-regulation over the profession? We may have reached a point at which we accept that for lawyers self-regulation can be shown to have worked not in the public interest but only in the interests of the profession.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
This has been a useful debate and many important points have been raised. In answer to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Davidson), I should say that we wish to avoid excessive regulation. The hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) raised some important points in that connection. It has been the view of successive Governments that the legal profession should police itself. Under the Solicitors (Scotland) Act 1980, the object of the Law Society is the promotion of the interests of the solicitors' profession in Scotland and the interests of the public in relation to that profession.
As has been said, we do receive complaints, but in general we are satisfied that the system works well. I am encouraged by the fact that the Scottish legal services ombudsman supports the present system of self-regulation and suggests that few advantages would be gained from wholesale change.
The hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley will be assisted if I say that the Law Society's three complaints committees all have four lay members out of a total of 14. A lay member is regularly called on to prepare the report on a complaint for the committee to consider, particularly when it is clear that a lay person's perception of events may differ markedly from that of a member of the profession.
Mr. Foulkes:
Can the Minister say who chooses the lay members? Is it the Law Society?
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
Yes, but they must be independent of the Law Society and the legal profession. The Scottish legal services ombudsman must be a lay person and is prevented by statute from being a solicitor, advocate or other member of the legal profession. There is no special pleading on behalf of my profession. The lay person is able to have a different perspective to oversee the process and to ensure that it works fairly.
The hon. Member for Cumbernauld and Kilsyth (Mr. Hogg) raised important issues about whether there is a discrepancy in the ombudsman's powers. The legal
services ombudsman looks at how a professional organisation handles a complaint, not the complaint itself. The local government ombudsman and the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration look at the complaint itself, so the remits and powers are different.
The legal ombudsman must be able to look at all the papers that a professional organisation has considered. The handling of the complaint must be relevant. The hon. Member for Cumbernauld and Kilsyth asked for consistency. I can confirm that the local government ombudsman and the Parliamentary Commissioner may require any member or officer of the body being investigated or any other person who in their view is able to furnish information or produce relevant documents to do so. There is no suggestion that confidential documents or information would be considered exempt.
In Committee, I told the hon. Gentleman that I had no desire for confidential material to be produced. I was talking about confidential material that was not relevant to the handling of the complaint. The amendment would remove the provision that the professional organisation's duty to provide relevant information or documents supersedes any duty of confidentiality that the organisation owes to another person. The provision is essential to ensure that the ombudsman has access to all relevant information.
The important word is "relevant". The ombudsman investigates the organisation's handling of a complaint, not the actual complaint. Any information or documents required have to be relevant to the consideration of the complaint. It is right that the ombudsman should have access to all relevant documents so that he can investigate the matter properly. The current provision in the Bill puts the existing practice on a statutory basis and provides protection for the professional organisations.
The complainer who has asked the ombudsman to investigate the handling of a case would have no reason to complain that the ombudsman had seen documents which would otherwise be confidential. It is in the interest of the complainer that the ombudsman should have access to the relevant information. Documents containing confidential information relating to third parties--a point raised by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Chisholm)--would be unlikely to be relevant to the way in which the organisation handled the complaint. They are therefore unlikely to be required by the ombudsman.
I understand hon. Members' concern to prevent confidential information obtained by the ombudsman from being misused. I give an undertaking to the House that the Secretary of State for Scotland will issue the ombudsman with a direction that he should use such
information or documents only in exercising his powers in connection with his statutory functions, and should ensure that his staff do likewise.
Dr. Godman:
What size staff is envisaged for investigations? Will the Minister advise the ombudsman to ensure that leaflets are published which can be given to people--for instance, in citizens advice bureaux?
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