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Dr. Spink: The Portman Group has since had detailed negotiations and discussions with my hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench and myself and is now broadly supportive of the Bill. It would state that the Bill is just one of a number of measures that should be taken to tackle the problem, and I think that we can all agree with that.
Lady Olga Maitland: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing me up to date. I was surprised that such a well-known and established organisation should take such a view, and I am glad that, as a result of consultation, it is now on board and with us on this important measure.
I hope that the Portman Group will now turn its attention to another enormously important matter, which relates directly to the Bill. A new form of alcohol is
coming onto the market, of which young people are likely to take advantage: young people can now make an alcopop drink in their own homes. A company has put on to the market a product called "Splooch"--a bizarre name for a rather serious problem--which can turn a soft drink into alcohol with the equivalent strength of strong beer. It is bought in kit form and costs only £4.99. What is worrying is that the kit is promoted with a cartoon logo showing two eyes looking the worse for drink. When the makers of that home-mode hooch were challenged about it, Mr. Richard Danby of Continental Wine Experts in Norwich said:
Mr. Peter Atkinson:
I understand my hon. Friend's concern but we must not get too excited about these matters. I remember from my youth a number of drinks that could be mixed up quite nicely--one was called a "Moscow mule", in which one could never taste the alcohol but which certainly had a dramatic effect. Those mixtures and the ability to mix drinks have always been around. Our aim should be not to run around trying to ban bits of the drink industry, which would simply make it more attractive still to young people, but to educate young people about the dangers of alcohol abuse. That is the answer.
Lady Olga Maitland:
I agree with my hon. Friend that we must educate young people about alcohol abuse. None the less, when alcohol is so accessible, whether through brewing it in the home or purchasing it in shops and off licences, we must take it seriously. I am worried that this is yet another means for young people to obtain alcohol easily and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will say whether the Government will consider banning drinks brewed at home and targeted at young people.
I particularly welcome the fact that the Bill confiscates alcohol not only in public places like high streets and city centres but on public transport. I raised that matter on Second Reading and want to emphasise the importance of rigorously invoking that power on buses, late-night buses and trains. It is no joke for fellow passengers and, travelling on the trains as I do, I find it extremely unpleasant to be terrorised by young thugs who are carrying drink and totally out of control. Their intimidatory behaviour is unpleasant and the filth and chaos that they create in railway carriages is deeply unpleasant. I hope that train guards and ticket collectors will be encouraged to call the police when they feel that they need help.
Finally, the Bill is important from the point of view of parental responsibility. The fact that the parents could receive a letter if a young person has been found carrying alcohol will mean that young Johnny will have to answer for what he has been doing.
The Bill will be a further deterrent, because more notice will be taken of what young people are doing. I find it amazing that youngsters, sometimes under the age of 12, are roaming round the streets late at night. I suspect that that is part of the wider problem of the breakdown of the traditional family. Young people tend to feel that they are not the No. 1 interest to either parent, because the parents have a multiplicity of partners.
Those children roaming the streets become prey to the growing problem of alcohol abuse. That is extremely serious. Some parents have opted out of their responsibilities, but that problem can now be dealt with. The letters, and even a visit from the police, will force them to recognise where they have let their children down.
Mr. Walter Sweeney (Vale of Glamorgan):
I agree that my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Dr. Spink) deserves the thanks of the House for introducing this small but useful measure.
I listened to what my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Smith) said about the danger of people being criminalised through the Bill, but only irresponsible young people, who refused to co-operate with the police, would find themselves in trouble with the law. Law-abiding young people who handed over their bottle of alcohol without demur would not suffer in any way as a result of the measure, save for being deprived of the small amount of alcohol in their possession.
In common with many hon. Members, I have received complaints from people who live near a playing field, a youth club or a public alleyway. They complain that young people congregate in public and make a nuisance of themselves, drinking, shouting, dropping litter, abusing drugs and committing criminal damage. If the adults concerned remonstrate with the young people who are acting in such an anti-social way, they often receive a mouthful of bad language for their trouble. Often, the police are then called.
Under the existing law, remedies are available to the police. They can prosecute the young people for an offence under section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986, but to succeed they would need to show that someone had suffered harassment, alarm or distress. That may be a difficult test to satisfy in a trivial case.
We do not want our courts to be cluttered with minor examples of Public Order Act offences that take up a great deal of time for the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, witnesses and the courts; nor do we want the young people concerned to acquire a criminal record for a trivial act that may arise simply from thoughtlessness, which may be alcohol-related.
If the police take no action, however, the complainant is upset and may accuse them of failing in their duty, and may complain to the local Member of Parliament that the police are powerless or unwilling to interfere.
Under the existing law, the young people could be prosecuted for dropping litter. Litter in our streets and public places is certainly a nuisance that needs to be dealt with. There is a difficulty for the police, however. If the young people causing the litter are still present when the
officer arrives, they have only to pick up their beer cans and other rubbish, and there is no crime; but if the youngsters have left the scene, it is difficult to catch them and prove that they were responsible for the litter.
Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley):
The theme for today seems to be alcohol and, more importantly, law and order. As I said earlier, I believe that law and order is the most important issue for the general public. I have held public meetings to discuss that subject, and I have also enjoyed accompanying the police on their patrols on a Friday night from 9 pm until 2 am, when I witnessed the pressures they face fulfilling their duty of protecting the public. I have also visited a residential home in my constituency to discuss the problems experienced by the elderly. Intimidation and feeling threatened by young people is a very real problem for elderly people, and I am afraid that alcohol features in that equation.
The police in Fulwood adopt a very proactive attitude when approaching young people--particularly those as young as 11 or 12--who hang around on street corners consuming alcohol. It defies logic how those young people can get their hands on alcohol in the first place. The police usually confiscate it, but there is a grey area concerning those aged 15, 16 and 17. We know the difficulties that publicans have in trying to determine, in the absence of identity cards, whether young people are aged 18. They must use their judgment and, in some cases, they get it wrong.
We must ensure that the police are given the appropriate powers to confiscate alcohol from young people who are consuming it in public places. Such activity is obviously intimidatory to others and may lead to criminal acts. Some people have referred to the measure as a killjoy Bill. I was 15 when I first entered a pub in Swansea for the odd alcoholic drink, but I can safely say that I did not roam the streets with a can of lager when I was a youngster.
My hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Dr. Spink) emphasised that we are talking about a small minority of youngsters. Alcohol abuse is not a common problem among young people, the vast majority of whom are honest and good. We could all point to the good work that young people do: many are involved with charities, as well as with the guides, scouts and various other groups, and not in wrongdoing. We must make sure that we do not tar all young people with the same brush. However, we must also ensure that the police have the tools with which to target the small minority, so that they may protect the rest of society and remove the stigma from all young people.
Unlike the position 20 or 30 years ago, young people these days seem to have greater disposable incomes, which they spend as they choose. The village in which the residential home I visited is situated has a problem with young people. That problem is worse during the summer months, when youngsters are on holiday and the better weather allows them to stay out on the streets for
longer periods. It is a problem for some residents, who become fearful when they see young people congregating, even when those youngsters are without alcohol.
It has already been said, but I make the point again, that the "specials" do a superb job in assisting the rest of the police in dealing, for example, with the congregation of young people, with or without alcohol. I have seen the specials on the streets during weekends and other days of the week, and it is evident that their presence and that of the police generally do a power of good.
A lack of a police presence would lead to the congregating of young people, the consumption of alcohol and the problems that ensue. That is when police officers have to be taken away from other important duties to firefight, as it were, a problem that has already started. Instead, the police should be given support initially--at the stage when the specials are involved--to ensure that they can deter young people from congregating and gaining access to alcohol. I wished to give the specials a special mention.
The use of closed circuit television is useful. Such a system has been set up in Clitheroe, and I should like it extended to other areas. Problems arise when young people gain access to alcohol and then engage in criminal activities such as vandalism. That is a specific problem that can be addressed by the introduction of CCT. I hope that we shall continue with the work that has already been started under the Government in providing further resources to introduce CCT systems throughout the country.
We must not, however, forget rural areas. It is not only cities and towns that experience the problems to which I have referred. Many rural areas, such as Longbridge, would benefit from the introduction of CCT.
The Government are noted for their deregulation initiative. I warmly welcome deregulation, and since becoming a Member of this place I have seen the deregulation of licensing hours. It was thought at one time that pubs should close in the afternoon so as to correct certain problems. Pubs are now open from relatively early in the morning through until 11 pm. I should like to see further deregulation.
I am a hardened Euro-sceptic, but the rest of Europe seems to deal properly with licensing laws. I see no reason why people should not be allowed to drink in certain pubs that perhaps have special licences until 2 am, rather than being forced to go to clubs or elsewhere to drink. Why should they not be allowed to drink a little later at night? There might be a feeling within the Home Office that extended hours will only exacerbate certain problems that stem from the consumption of alcohol.
I suggest that we should further reflect on licensing hours, and not harm those who want to go about their lawful business by ensuring that pubs are closed at an unusually early hour by comparison with the rest of Europe. At the same time, we must ensure that the police have proper tools to deal with those who drink alcohol on the streets if we choose to extend licensing hours. The sooner there is an extension, the better--that is my view.
We must ensure that the police receive proper training in dealing with young people. It is important to ensure also that good relationships are maintained. We do not want to instil in the minds of young people the idea that the police are the enemy and that they are present to stop them having a good time. That is not the case. The police
must receive training to ensure that they are able to deal with possible problems. Certainly they should be hard on the young villains we wish to see cleared off the streets, but at the same time there should be good relations with the vast majority whose behaviour is extremely good.
It is said time and time again--I represent a rural area--that under-age drinking takes place in rural areas because there is not as much to do in the country as there is in towns and cities, where there are more facilities. We must ensure that resources provided by the national lottery are directed in part to rural areas to provide facilities that otherwise might not be affordable. Swimming pools and other facilities might help to get young people off the streets and into sporting activities. That would be extremely useful.
"It is intended for the alcopop market. It is meant to be the home-brew equivalent but we are certainly not targeting under-age drinkers. It takes ten days to brew and that is a considerable disincentive."
All that I can say is that he has totally underestimated the ingenuity and determination of young people to acquire alcohol by one means or another. If they can afford to brew it from their pocket money and take it out on to the streets, it is an extremely serious matter.
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