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Lady Olga Maitland: The brewing industry makes an enormous amount of money out of alcopop drinks. We are fooling ourselves if we think that a little self-regulation will be the answer. Does my hon. Friend agree that we should take tougher action, which means banning those drinks?
Mr. Evans: I usually agree with my hon. Friend in everything she says, thinks and does, but on this occasion I disagree with her. In the vast majority of cases, self-regulation, in co-ordination with the police, the Home Office and other bodies, is the right route. The drinks industry has a responsibility to its customers, to parents, as my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Dr. Spink) mentioned, and to society at large. It should carefully consider its marketing of these drinks.
I do not believe that such drinks should be banned, because that would merely lead to people going into pubs and saying, "Please can I have a glass of orange juice and two shots of vodka," and making their own combination. I have no problem with those drinks being available already made up, but it is totally wrong for the industry to target its marketing at young people. Some as young as 16 or 17 go to have a drink without an ID card. Their taste buds are not sufficiently developed for them to like other alcoholic drinks, so they are attracted to the softer drinks, and will ask for hooch or other alcopops.
The industry must carefully examine the names of some of these drinks. It has a responsibility, and we must give it the opportunity to show that it can regulate itself. If it refuses to do so, we must consider further legislation to ensure that such drinks are not targeted at our young people.
Parents have the ultimate responsibility for their children. I am delighted that, when the police take these drinks away from youngsters, they are not just given a
slap on the back of the hand and told to go away. The police get in touch with their parents, some of whom do not know what their youngsters are up to in the evenings. Even if they were given photographic evidence, some of them would deny that their little Johnny or Susie was drinking alcohol in the streets. Parents must take full responsibility for the actions of their youngsters. Perhaps they could be advised to have counselling, and be shown how they could deal with the problem of their youngster's drinking.
Mr. Michael Fabricant (Mid-Staffordshire):
I welcome the Bill, and I reaffirm that it is not meant to be an attack on young people--most of whom are very responsible and a credit to the community. It should be emphasised also that the Bill is not an attack on publicans or the alcohol industry. I ought to mention that many of the directors of Bass live in Lichfield, which is just down the road from Burton, one of the largest brewing cities in the country. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Dr. Spink) on his Bill, and Mr. George Spink of Keighley, who played an obvious part in its drafting.
In 1994, the Home Office stated that 2,701 people under 18 had been convicted or cautioned in that year for offences related to drunkenness. Clearly, this is a great problem, which needs to be addressed. It is not just a question of drunkenness and intimidation in the street; it is more a question of perceived intimidation.
Lichfield is a small rural town--it is a city by definition, as it has an 801-year-old cathedral. There is not a great deal to do in Lichfield, although there is a pub on every street corner. There is no nightclub, bowling alley or cinema. There is certainly no youth club--not even a club run by the cathedral, which is a sad thing to report. So where do people in Lichfield get their entertainment? In pubs.
I heartily agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) that we need more flexible closing times for pubs. I raised this subject in the House about two years ago, and said that we needed staggered closing times. The hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) got a cheap laugh by making a sedentary comment about staggering.
It is a phenomenon in this country that people pour out on to the streets at the same time--11 o'clock. Old people, and sometimes young people, in Lichfield feel intimidated when they are out on the streets on Friday and Saturday nights in particular and see people they think are drunk and threatening. However, in my experience, although those people might be slightly drunk, they are not intimidating.
The only criticism I have of the Bill is that it addresses only young persons' drinking. Part of the problem is people who are legitimately in pubs who buy lagers as 11 o'clock approaches and then drink them in the street. I believe that staggered closing times would get around that problem.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley about the importance of closed circuit television. CCTV has been introduced in Lichfield, and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department opened the operations. Not only has CCTV resulted in lower crime rates; it has deterred loutish behaviour--partly due to drinking alcohol--on the streets of Lichfield.
I have mentioned the important role played by special constables in Lichfield. Inspector Colin Bayley at Lichfield police station has told me that policing in Lichfield would fail--particularly on Friday and Saturday nights--without the worthwhile work of special constables on duty. One of the reasons I support the Bill is that it will make it easier for full-time police officers and special constables to confiscate alcohol, and pour it down the drain if it has been confiscated from young people.
Alcopops have been mentioned. I have been serving on the Committee dealing with the Finance Bill, and I want to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury. He has outlined the dangers as vividly as my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland), but was slightly more practical. In this instance, he had the power to slap some prohibitive tax on alcopops. I hope that that will be a practical way of deterring people from drinking them.
Lady Olga Maitland:
I am delighted at this excellent news, but what sort of tax will be imposed on this pernicious drink, which has brought so much harm to our young people?
Mr. Fabricant:
It is times like these when I wish I had not given way to my hon. Friend. I refer her, however, to the Finance Bill, which has now been reported from Committee. Next week or the week after, it will be further discussed, and, if my hon. Friend goes to the Vote Office, she will be able to find out the precise amount of taxation. I wish that I could give her the information off the top of my head, but sadly I cannot.
I pay tribute to a friend of mine, Dr. Alan Howard of Cambridge university, whose son, incidentally, is the Conservative candidate in Kingswood. Dr. Howard has shown that there is some nutritional benefit in drinking alcohol. He has developed an extract from red wine called Nutrivine, which will be marketed. As I have said, we should not condemn the drinking of alcohol out of hand. There is clear medical evidence that, as with most things, if it is drunk in moderation, it can be of no harm. That is particularly so with red wine, although perhaps not quite such the case with beer. Alcohol can be beneficial, although we do not want to encourage young people to go over the top in drinking red wine.
Whether or not there is danger in the streets through young people drinking alcohol, there is a perceived danger. People in Lichfield and other places throughout this land are frightened on a Friday and Saturday night, and perhaps on other nights, of going out on to the streets when they see behaviour that they consider to be drunken, loutish and threatening. Whether it is drunken, loutish or threatening is not the point--it is perceived to be such.
Mr. Doug Henderson (Newcastle upon Tyne, North):
I am pleased to give the Opposition's support to this private Member's Bill. When we were discussing the previous business, I had intended to make a terse speech, but I listened to some of the contributions from Conservative Members and I was tempted into making one or two comments, which lengthened my contribution. You will be pleased to know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that, because Labour is a little short-handed, I have had one or two other duties to which to attend this morning and I have not had the good fortune to listen to some of the other contributions from Conservative Members. The consequence--I am sure that the House will welcome this--is that my contribution will be as terse as I had intended my contribution to be in relation to previous business.
The Bill is important. I got a flavour of some of the claims made by Conservative Members. It is not a particularly party political issue, but great claims have been made about sorting out all the problems of young people, under-age drinking and all the rest of it. It is naive to think that any single measure will do that. People who make that claim forget their own teenage days, their colleagues and friends and all the little pranks that everyone got up to then.
If society knew how to deal with these problems, it would have dealt with them already. It is a case of continuing to monitor what is happening and of stopping the excesses, although I do not think that we can ban particular types of alcohol easily; it would be simple for people to produce alternatives that had essentially the same effect.
During my own teenage days, young people used to get hold of all sorts of things such as Eldorado sherry, which is probably quite pleasant, but is not supposed to be drunk in pints at a time, as some of my young friends used to do. There was a drink in Glasgow called Lanliq, which I think was produced by the same company, and it was pure firewater. Young people who could not afford more expensive forms of intoxication often got dragged into the Lannie queues.
Citizens, be they under or over 18, should not be intimidated by others drinking in public places. That is anti-social and, if the Bill does nothing other than prevent that, thus giving people a little more peace in their streets and in their communities, it will achieve a great deal. I hope that it achieves more and leads to a reduction in under-age drinking and excessive drinking generally. I also hope that it will lead to better behaviour by youngsters.
The Bill is consistent with our general approach to community safety orders, which are intended to give people peace in their environment. No one would claim that legislation will turn things around overnight: it is a matter of making a start and trying to improve difficult situations.
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