| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
1.1 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Timothy Kirkhope): In one way or another, we seem to have had a somewhat boozy morning. We have debated alcohol in two Bills, but the subjects that we have debated have had more to do with where alcohol can cause considerable problems and nuisance, such as in public places or in the closed environment of a prison.
The question of testing for alcohol, which we discussed earlier, applies to some extent to this Bill. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Dr. Spink) on the Bill, which he has taken through the various stages with skill, expertise and considerable commitment. I suspect that some parents might also like a power to test for alcohol. Although it cannot be provided in the Bill, it is right to reassure parents that the police will be on their side in helping them to deal with a problem that can occur from time to time with young people. Sometimes, parents do not know whether their teenage children are consuming alcohol in a public place: the parents may know that their children are out, but they cannot be sure what the children are getting up to.
As we know, most youngsters behave in a community-spirited way and perhaps contribute more to society than previous generations. I would be the last to criticise their contribution, but it is important that the Bill gives the police power to ascertain the name and address of a young person from whom they confiscate alcohol. I am also confident that, if the matter is brought to the attention of parents, as is allowed for by the Bill, the vast majority will confront their children about it. That might lead to greater family understanding of a controlled and sensible approach to alcohol.
Alcohol can, of course, lead youngsters to get themselves into a lot of trouble and do things that they bitterly regret later. Drunkenness may lead to general bad behaviour, shouting at passers-by and oafishness, but it can also lead to criminal activity, as we heard in an earlier debate today. Research shows that many crimes are alcohol-related.
Apart from the danger that young people can take that step towards crime, it is also true that many members of the public will find the sight of youngsters the worse for drink somewhat disturbing; they can be offensive. I am sorry that my hon Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern) is not here today, for he has taken a considerable interest in the Bill. On Second Reading, he
revealed that he is 5 ft 5 in tall. That is a very good height to be, but I hope that I am not alone in noticing that young people these days seem to come a lot bigger than that. Lads of just 13 or 14 can seem very threatening when they are fooling about and behaving badly because they have had too much to drink; so, for that matter, can young girls--this is not a problem that relates only to boys.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point made clear, there is currently a loophole in the law. The Licensing Act 1964 prohibits young people under 18 from purchasing alcohol in licensed premises, and adults from buying alcohol to give to young people to drink in licensed premises, but it does not prohibit young people from consuming alcohol in any place other than licensed premises.
My hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point referred to deregulation, and, as the Minister with responsibility in the Home Office for deregulation--particularly licensing--I can say that applying extra restrictions is something that I consider carefully. Deregulation can work only if it is based on a need to continue to protect the public from abuses that can occur. Getting that balance right is difficult for the Government to achieve. The Bill is an important component and does not necessarily attack the continued need to investigate deregulation opportunities.
Although the police take enforcement of existing legislation very seriously, if they see young people who appear the worse for drink, they are restricted in what they can do because the young people and any adults with them are not committing an offence. The police have, of course, been trying to do their best. I know that all hon. Members are well aware of the initiative started by the police in Weymouth, to which my hon. Friend referred, which was a response to the problem of under-age drinking in public areas.
The initiative involved videoing children drinking alcohol and then taking them back to their parents, who were then shown the video. It has been a great success and has encouraged parents to take responsibility for their children. I find it particularly encouraging that parents have been very ready to do that, and few of the youngsters who were videoed have come to the attention of the police again.
However, officers do not always have a video camera to hand. The police need a quick, on-the-spot solution that can be used at any time. That is what the Bill provides. Once enacted, it will be available to an officer throughout England, Wales and Northern Ireland. We extended the Bill to Northern Ireland in Committee. A similar measure for Scotland is contained in the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Bill. Any officer who is concerned by a group of youngsters who are drinking will be able to act immediately to stop the problem.
The Bill has been considered with great thoroughness in Committee, and I compliment all hon. Members who were on that Committee on their diligence in carrying out their task. I remind the House that the Bill gives the police the power to confiscate alcoholic drinks, or those that appear to be alcoholic, from any person under the age of 18 if they are in a public place or, indeed, a place to which they have unlawfully gained access. It also gives the power to confiscate alcohol from anyone who has reached the age of 18 if the police have grounds to believe that the person concerned will give it to a young person in their company.
The House will note that the Bill gives the power of confiscation to any police officer. As the House will recall, before the Bill was drawn up we consulted widely. The consultation paper originally suggested that the police officer should be in uniform. The Association of Chief Police Officers responded by saying that that could cause problems. It considered that there might be times when a plain-clothes officer would wish to make use of the power, so the Bill has been drafted in that way and the power applies to any officer.
The House will also note that the police are given a power to confiscate anything that is, or that the constable reasonably believes to be, intoxicating liquor. That is so there can be no argument about whether a drink is alcoholic. We had a long debate about that in Committee, and my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West was concerned that the police might confiscate something that was not alcoholic. I appreciated his concerns. We discussed the difficulties that the police might have in distinguishing between alcopops and what might turn out to be just lemon pop--in other words, a soft drink.
I do not want to debate alcopops now--I am sure that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, would not allow me to do so--save to say that I share my hon. Friends' concern. I welcome the initiative taken by the Portman Group; indeed, I spoke to its director, Jean Coussins, just a few days ago. The House should continue to monitor the matter closely, because some of the industry's assurances have not been satisfactory.
There was one flaw in the Bill, which was spotted by my hon. Friend for Bristol, North-West. In the Bill as originally drafted, an officer had the right to dispose of the intoxicating liquor which was surrendered to him. My hon. Friend asked whether the officer had the right to dispose of a drink that he genuinely believed to be intoxicating, but about which he was mistaken. Now, it might be said that that was unlikely, or even that it could not be proven, because the evidence would be literally down the drain, but we did not want there to be any doubt about the police powers.
It would be unfortunate if someone with a bent for litigation were to rootle around in a waste bin, find the can from which the police officer had poured away the drink and then, assuming that there was a drop or two left in the bottom, send that off for analysis. He might strike lucky--no alcohol would be found. He could then try to bring a suit against the police for wrongful confiscation. Obviously, we do not want to run that risk, even if it is a remote one. An amendment was accepted in Committee giving the police the power to dispose of anything that was surrendered to them.
The House will also note that the police have the power to confiscate the alcohol in any public place. That is an important matter, because what is a public place? It is, of course, a place to which, at the material time, the public
or any section of the public has access on payment or otherwise, as of right or by virtue of express or implied permission. It is important to ensure the police have that power, whether the youngsters are in a park, sitting on a bench in the street, congregated around the bus station, outside a take-away, in a shopping mall or cinema, or trespassing in someone's garden or in school grounds, when they should not be there.
It is an offence under the Bill for a person either to refuse to hand over the alcohol or to refuse to give his or her name and address when requested to do so. In Committee, we debated the nature of the fine if a person refused to do so. It was important to set it at a sensible level--currently £500. The Bill also gives the police a power of arrest. That should be used in extremis, but it is essential that that power is available to them.
I hope that the Bill will lead to fewer young people coming before the courts, because youngsters will not go on to commit the kind of offences that we know they commit when drunk. They should quickly learn that they will not be permitted to drink in public. The fact that we are not adopting a criminal approach in the initial stage of the Bill's implementation is the right way to deal with the problem when it occurs.
A discretionary power is available to the police. They do not have to confiscate alcohol. There may be an occasion when a group of young people have a picnic to celebrate their A-level results and drink a spot of cider. An officer may suspect that one or two of them are under 18. The Licensing Act 1964 provides that youngsters under the age of 18 but who have reached the age of 16 may consume beer, or cider, or perry on licensed premises provided they do so with a meal. If that group of youngsters are behaving themselves and are not drunk, the officer may properly decide to use his discretion and turn a blind eye to the fact that some of them look a trifle young. Similarly, if he sees a family on the beach and one of the children has a sip of wine, he will not be expected to go and remove it. For such legislation to work, a certain amount of common sense is required. I am proud of the fact that our police forces are extremely sensible in their approach; we can rely on them to apply common sense.
I feel confident that the legislation will help to improve the quality of life of many of our constituents. I heard what my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant) said about all the things that are not available in Lichfield, but he missed an important one: Lichfield does not have a Labour Member of Parliament, which is an extremely good thing for his area.
I am pleased that the Bill has all-party support. The way in which the debate has been conducted has been an excellent example of all-party co-operation. I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |