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1.59 pm
Mr. David Congdon (Croydon, North-East): It was very interesting listening to the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster). I had the pleasure of serving on the Committee dealing with the Bill, and I listened to his thoughts on this important subject at that time. The most ironic part of his speech today was when he talked about going out with a television crew. I thought to myself, "I bet they didn't go on a bus or a train." Sure enough, they ended up in a traffic jam.
That sums up everything one needs to say about the Bill. No one can disagree with it, because who does not want to see traffic reduced? But I have to say that, despite all the support it has received--and I am one of those who support it--it has the whiff of gesture politics. It contains a wish list of things we would like to see but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Luff) made clear, we want other people to get out of their cars and go by train or bus so we can make our journeys more quickly. That is the heart of the difficulty with a Bill of this nature.
A fundamental point which came out following some of the representations we received was that although it is laudable to try to reduce traffic levels, it is the wrong target. A far more important target is the level of congestion. It does not matter if an extra car is on a road where traffic is flowing freely. Some people disagree with that, but many journeys made by car are economic and
efficient--and some are far more efficient than journeys by public transport. I can give an illustration of this. Most journeys made outside peak transport times--particularly journeys made during the evening--across country or across towns are made by car.
Mr. Booth:
Does my hon. Friend want us to go down the route towards the system used in Paris and other continental cities, which requires delivery lorries to deliver during the hours of nightfall?
Mr. Congdon:
My hon. Friend makes an important point. What causes the real problems in our cities and on our roads? Traffic volume causes problems, but the crucial thing is people parking in bad positions. Many of the problems are caused by delivery lorries and vans parking near junctions or traffic lights to deliver during the day. There are difficulties in taking that too far, because some people would not like heavy lorries in residential areas at night, but a balance must be struck.
That leads me to another important point. The emphasis should be more on improving the flow of traffic, hence reducing congestion, rather than on volume. I have lived in London all my life, and it is fair to say that London--particularly south London--has had little improvement to its road network. I am not arguing for massive new road building. I was opposed to the south London assessment studies, as the hon. Member for Woolwich (Mr. Austin-Walker) and other Members would have been. We have had little in terms of simple junction improvements to significantly reduce congestion.
How often does one find when one drives that the traffic grinds to a halt either because a delivery lorry is parked on a junction, or because someone is wanting to turn right, thus preventing traffic from flowing? A lot more could be done to improve the capacity of the road system in a city such as London, without major new road building.
Some of the approaches of traffic plans and traffic managers in town halls slow up traffic and cause congestion. This is a delicate issue. In residential roads, it is right to want to slow up cars. On roads that are used by more traffic, the balance is too far the other way. Certainly, in my area of Croydon, there seems to be a fascination and obsession with putting "Keep Left" signs at every point down a road, which effectively create a barrier. It is dangerous, because buses have to weave in and out. Although it slows down the traffic, which one could say is a good objective, and aids safety, it affects the flow and increases congestion.
Let me turn again to the objective of the Bill: reducing the volume of road traffic. What I am not clear about, and it did not come out clearly in Committee, is how many of the people who support the Bill are thinking in terms of simply reducing the rate of growth in traffic, which is a laudable objective, and how many are unrealistically thinking that, somehow, we can reduce the absolute level of traffic.
That crucial point needs to be addressed because, as I said in my intervention, the big driver behind the growth in traffic is increased wealth. In that sense, it does not matter what local authorities put in these plans. If our economy achieves good levels of economic growth--2.5 per cent., 3 per cent., or let us say 3.5 per cent. even; I would love to see that, although some people might
not--as sure as night follows day, there would be big increases in traffic volumes. Conversely, we may want an absolute reduction in the level of traffic.
Let us return to the economic climate of the 1960s and 1970s, when we did not achieve good economic performance. If we went back to the standard of living then, we would have much lower levels of traffic, as fewer people would have cars. I am sure that that cannot be the objective. People aspire to own cars and want to use them. The challenge is to ensure that we can somehow contain the negative sides of their impact.
Pollution is an important issue and is linked to that of volume. I support the Government's determination to reduce the level of pollution from transport, but again I find it ironic that, when I drive to the House, most of the time at such odd hours--it is not quite so bad on a Friday--the worst pollution seems to come from lorries and buses. I am repeatedly told that public transport is marvellous and clean. It would be a brave person who would say that buses are clean. They seem to spew out filth from their diesel engines. I have a real concern about that.
Pollution is a problem and it is a legitimising factor behind the Bill. I readily concede that, because, as I have said, anything that can be done to help to restrain the rate of growth in traffic is useful, but I suspect that far more significant changes in reducing pollution will come when we get an alternative to the internal combustion engine, which surely as a society we are going to have to have. I do not want to turn the clock back, with all of us going around on horses and carts and never being able to visit people. We travel around because we want to do things.
Mr. Booth:
I am grateful to be allowed to intervene a second time on my hon. Friend. Does he agree that, in Victorian times, people bemoaned the fact that the congestion of the horse and cart and of carriage transport was terrible? Apparently, the stench from the manure from the horses was so noxious that a number of legal actions took place over that at the time
Mr. Congdon:
My hon. Friend makes a timely intervention to remind us that, back in those times, there was severe congestion from the horse-drawn transport, but, perhaps even more significantly, there was a somewhat different and perhaps more devastating pollution problem. At that time, forecasts were made, presumably by the predecessors of the Department of Transport--I do not know what it called itself in those days; perhaps the Department of the horse or something like that--that manure would be piled high to first-floor level. That never happened.
The Minister for Railways and Roads (Mr. John Watts):
The hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster) has given my views on the Bill's principles and outlined the
My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Luff) spoke about the fallacy into which the House often falls of believing that legislation can change the world, and always for the better. My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East (Mr. Congdon) spoke about the danger of creating a wish list or of indulging in gesture politics. I had such fears about the notion of starting with the imposition of national targets. That would be gesture politics, because we do not have the policy levers to deliver such targets nationally.
Focusing on local targets and on practical local measures to achieve them makes the legislation practical. The Bill does not engage in gesture politics, but suggests practical ways to resolve problems at local level. My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester cited some practical measures that have already been taken by public transport operators to increase the use of public transport by making it more convenient and accessible. Local authorities that follow the Bill and the guidance that will be issued under it will support such measures in co-operation with public transport operators, whether they are train or bus companies or both working together.
My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester emphasised the importance of wide consultation. That is vital. If practical results are to be delivered, there must be local consensus on what is needed, what the targets should be and what is needed to achieve them. I have no difficulty whatever in joining the hon. Member for Bath in agreeing with my hon. Friend that parish councils should be included in such consultations. They should also include the business community, schools, hospitals, substantial organisations and groups of residents. They all need to be on board if the right solution to local problems is to be identified.
The Bill, as amended, recognises that some developments will generate traffic and that the effects will not automatically be deleterious. That is why the Bill requires authorities to identify the need to set targets and, in reply to a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East, introduce practical measures that can deliver them. Hon. Members have spoken about the British Road Federation and the Confederation of British Industry. Coincidentally, I am shortly to meet representatives of both bodies.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester that the Bill is not a quick fix but a well-thought-out, longer-term strategy for striking a balance between our desire to protect the environment in which we live and which we enjoy, while ensuring that our mobility needs, personally or in the course of our economic activities, are met. We must not fall victim to stifling congestion. The Bill is not anti-car. As I said on Second Reading, if we fail to tackle the problems of congestion, that will not benefit those who need to use cars or business vehicles. Nor is this an anti-bypass measure. If traffic can be taken away from a town or village where it is inflicting a poor-quality environment and routed elsewhere without generating more traffic, that would not be contrary to the objectives of reducing traffic or traffic growth, and would be an environmental enhancement.
The hon. Member for Woolwich (Mr. Austin-Walker) referred to the importance of sustainability and to the safer routes to school initiative which many local authorities are promoting. We need to consider safer cycle routes. When I was in Plymouth recently, I saw new cycle routes alongside major roads, and a new type of crossing called a toucan, which is not just for pedestrians but for cyclists.
Yesterday, I was in Taunton and travelled on a gas-powered bus to Bristol. The use of alternative fuels with lower emissions, particularly for public transport vehicles, is one way in which we can achieve some of our environmental objectives. At Bristol Temple Meads station, I presented a special ticket to the 10,000th Great Western passenger who had made use of its new facility to buy a bus ticket while on the train. Virgin Rail is another company introducing advance taxi bookings from the train. It is trying to make a public transport journey as seamless as a car journey where somebody walks out of the front door and stays in the car until he or she reaches the office or another destination.
My hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mr. Booth), in a thoughtful but brief speech, set out certain principles that he thought important. I did not note all eight of them, but I certainly agree that freedom of choice is very important. By improving the quality of public transport provision, we will extend the real choice that people have. I do not believe that many people make a conscious choice to get into a car and sit in a traffic jam. Many of them choose the car because they see no alternative.
My hon. Friend also stressed the importance of improving interchanges between different transport modes. We are seeing many good examples from private rail and bus operators, often in co-operation with enlightened local authorities that provide such facilities. My hon. Friend also made the point about the need to spread knowledge of best practice. Where there are good initiatives in some areas, that knowledge needs to be spread widely so that the same solutions can be applied elsewhere.
I endorse entirely my hon. Friend's suggestion that we need to make better use of science, and apply technology more imaginatively. He said that he believed that it was sensible to put environmental issues on the agenda. That is what the Bill will do. It will require every traffic authority to consider the level of traffic in its area, its future trends and what needs to be done about it. He also made the point that we should not just generate more work for bureaucrats. Amending the Bill so that in England we can set targets in guidance that would be part of the annual transport policies and programme round is one way in which we can ensure that we achieve those beneficial objectives without imposing new and unnecessary burdens on local authorities.
My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North-East referred to the impact of ill-thought-out and inconsiderate parking, and the need for smaller measures to improve traffic flow on our urban roads. I agree that, in implementing traffic management and calming measures, the devil is often in the detail. One cannot simply take a particular engineering feature out of a design patent book and stick it down anywhere and expect it to work. It is often in the detail that the problems arise. That is why local consultation is vital if such measures are to be effective.
The Bill suggests targets to reduce not just the absolute level of traffic--that may be possible in some circumstances--but to reduce traffic growth. My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East also said that there is, apparently, an inexorable link between growth of traffic and gross domestic product. We do not know which way round that relationship works, but he will be interested to know that our expert advisory committee, the Standing Advisory Committee on Trunk Road Assessments, has been given the remit to study that relationship. We await its findings with great interest.
I have given a brief response, but necessarily so. I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
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