House of Commons Hansard Debates for 5 Mar 1997 (pt 27)

Mr. McNamara: The Home Secretary seems to be rejecting one of Lord Lloyd's recommendations. Will he tell us what other recommendations he is rejecting?

Mr. Howard: I am surprised at the hon. Gentleman's intervention. He follows these matters closely, and we have put it on record that, as Lord Lloyd was invited to review the position on the assumption that there was a lasting peace in Northern Ireland and as--most regrettably--that has not yet come to pass, we have not formed a view on Lord Lloyd's recommendations. We said as much in answer to a parliamentary question. It is not a question of our having rejected Lord Lloyd's recommendations; we have not reached a view on them.

Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North): Does the Home Secretary not think that his defence of the PTA system, under which he as Home Secretary can grant an extension of a detention order, is very perverse? He seems to be defending a judicial procedure that can keep people in custody for up to seven days without access to the courts. Does he not think that he should take account of the international condemnation of that system? After all, it is a denial of the liberty of the individuals involved.

Mr. Howard: I entirely reject every word of that intervention. Far from there being international condemnation, as the hon. Gentleman will no doubt be aware, the question of derogation from the European convention of human rights on that specific issue has been tested before the court, and the court did not uphold the challenge that was made in the Brannigan case.

Mr. McNamara: I am sorry to delay the Home Secretary's speech, but may I pursue the point? I accept what he said about the premise on which Lord Lloyd made his recommendations, but Lord Lloyd also made specific recommendations for a raft of what he would regard as emergency powers after we have attained a particular status. That is what we were talking about.

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Are the Government saying that, because the premise has not been accepted, they do not accept any of Lord Lloyd's recommendations; or is the Home Secretary merely saying that at present they are not accepting that particular recommendation because they have not reached a view on Lord Lloyd's recommendations, which were made on a premise that the Home Secretary does not accept in any event?

Mr. Howard: We have made our position very clear. I shall say something about it in a moment. We accept some of Lord Lloyd's recommendations relating to extra-territorial jurisdiction; as for the generality of his recommendations, which were made on the assumption that there was a lasting peace in Northern Ireland and which indicate the legislative framework that he thinks would be appropriate in those circumstances, we have said that, as that assumption has not yet been fulfilled, we see no need to state our attitude to those recommendations at this stage. We shall continue to keep them under review. If and when--I hope that it will happen very soon--the assumption that Lord Lloyd was asked to make comes about, we will consider what decisions to make in the light of the circumstances at the time. We have made that clear.

The Act contains other provisions that play a vital part in disrupting and combating terrorism. Again, as Mr. Rowe's report makes clear, the powers to stop, examine, and search those coming into, or leaving, Great Britain or Northern Ireland form a vital part of our defences. Of great importance, too, are the powers of the police to investigate terrorist finances and to obtain production and explanation orders in relation to funds and other material found.

As the House knows, we added to the powers available to the police under the PTA last April. We gave the police additional powers to stop and search individuals for articles of use in carrying out terrorist acts; to seal off the streets to prevent or investigate a terrorist attack; and to search non-residential property and unaccompanied freight at ports. Those additional powers are already proving their worth, as Mr. Rowe's report makes clear.

The police have told me of the use they have made in recent investigations of the power to search, under warrant, non-residential premises without having to specify the one in which they believe the terrorist material for which they are looking may be found. The additional powers to stop and search have also had an impact: the police believe that they have had a significant deterrent effect, and have disrupted the ability of terrorists to move themselves and their equipment around at will. In those circumstances, it is quite extraordinary that 21 Labour Members saw fit to vote against the Prevention of Terrorism (Additional Powers) Act 1996 on Second Reading.

Perhaps the most sensitive power in the Act, and one which the Opposition have long opposed, is that of exclusion. I know that some hon. Members, while wholly supportive of other parts of the legislation, are concerned about denying British citizens access to part of their country. As one who remains proud to call himself a Unionist, I understand and sympathise with their concerns. However, when faced with people who will stop at nothing to achieve their ends, we have to accept exceptional measures--measures that in normal circumstances we would not be prepared even to contemplate.

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I have no doubt of the value of these powers. Exclusion orders disrupt and deter those bent on carrying out terrorist attacks, and deprive the terrorist organisations to which they belong of some of their most experienced operators. That is also Mr. Rowe's clear conclusion. If the power can help us to combat the terrorist menace, we must keep it. It would be wholly irresponsible to discard it simply because it results in the restriction of the movements of certain individuals.

Some suggest that the process for making exclusion orders is arbitrary and unfair. Mr. Rowe's report makes it clear that it is not. He has looked at all files relating to the cases that were dealt with in 1996, and I am pleased to note that he found that all those involved in making the orders carried out their task carefully and fairly. The powers are used sparingly, not least in recognition of their exceptional nature. There are currently 23 exclusion orders in force. That is the lowest total ever. However, I do not rule out the possibility that further orders will be made. Each case will, as now, be considered very carefully on its merits.

There are those who argue that, as the number excluded is now relatively small, it would make little difference if all the orders were revoked. I do not accept that. We believe that they are needed, and that they are effective. The alternative--mounting surveillance operations on all those currently excluded--would have substantial resource implications. It is simply not realistic, particularly when the police and the Security Service are fully engaged in preventing further attacks and investigating those that have already taken place.

I have explained why we need to renew the prevention of terrorism Act for a further 12 months, but I should like to turn briefly to the future. In December 1995, the Government asked Lord Lloyd of Berwick to consider the future need for specific counter-terrorism legislation in the United Kingdom in the event of a lasting peace in Northern Ireland. His report was published in October 1996. Very regrettably, the conditions that he was asked to anticipate do not exist at present. That is why the Government believe, as I announced on 20 February, that it is too early to reach any firm conclusions on the more fundamental legislative changes that Lord Lloyd proposed. Our hope is that there will soon be an end to the violence, and that we shall then be able to look again at the possibility of providing a new legislative framework for combating terrorism.

However, I am determined that the police should have all the powers they need to combat effectively the current threat from terrorism. That is why I intend to introduce proposals in due course to strengthen the existing controls on terrorist finances. Those proposals will build on Lord Lloyd's very helpful ideas.

One area that Lord Lloyd looked at particularly closely was legislation to deal with the activities of United Kingdom supporters of foreign terrorism. He concluded:

"The most significant additional measure which the Government can take is to amend the law of conspiracy so as to facilitate the prosecution of those who conspire here to commit terrorist acts abroad. It may take a prosecution or two before the measure takes full effect but it should then serve as a demonstration, both to those involved and to the international community, of the Government's determination to make the UK as difficult and uncomfortable a place as possible for supporters of terrorism overseas".