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Mr. McFall: The right hon. Gentleman asks what I am going to say, but with immaculate timing the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Jones), when asked in a written question today by the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Mr. Richards),
- "if he will make a statement about the development of NHS Trusts in Wales",
- "There are currently 30 NHS Trusts in Wales.
My right hon. Friend and I have received a joint application from the Pembrokeshire and Derwen NHS Trusts to dissolve and create a new single trust from April 1997. Public consultation on this application ended on 17 February 1997.
Taking full account of the many representations received, and of the individual merits of bringing the two trusts together, we have decided to approve the merger."
Mr. McFall: The Secretary of State had 32 minutes. He has said enough. If it is good enough for Wales, what is wrong with Scotland?
Mr. McFall: The Secretary of State cannot bully his way to the Dispatch Box. He was hyper in his 32 minutes. Let him sit down, take the tablets and listen to the debate. He has had his say.
Mr. Forsyth: Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. It is clear that the hon. Gentleman is not giving way. Perhaps he can further clarify that.
Mr. McFall: It is not on for a member of the Cabinet to call hon. Members nasty and then expect to get his way
thereafter. He must sit in his place because I have the Floor. The question is, if it is good enough for Wales, why not Scotland? Perhaps the Secretary of State for Wales will answer that question in his civilised way, unlike the Secretary of State for Scotland.
The message from the Secretary of State for Scotland was about privatisation of the health service in Scotland. He is on record as saying that if clinicians want it, privatisation of clinical services will take place. Despite the fact that the Secretary of State for Health has ruled it out, the Secretary of State for Scotland says that privatisation of clinical services is on the agenda for Scotland. The agenda for a fifth Tory term in Scotland is going to strike at the heart of the NHS. The message to the people of Scotland is that is the Secretary of State for Scotland will destroy the public element of the NHS, another example of his being at odds with his Cabinet colleagues. It is not enough that he is at odds with them on E. coli; he is now at odds with them on health service privatisation.
We have come to a pretty pass when we read in the weekend papers that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has instructed his officials to write to the Cabinet Secretary, Sir Robin Butler, about the Secretary of State for Scotland's off-the-record criticism of him last week during the row on the report on failing hygiene standards in abattoirs. The Secretary of State for Scotland ordered his staff on Thursday night to tell the press that he was "incandescent with rage" with another member of the Cabinet. Reporters to whom we have spoken gave us the names of the press representatives he sent out. One newspaper said:
The debate is about public responsibility for social justice. The Government's record on social and economic injustice in Scotland is nothing short of disgraceful. Let us rehearse quickly the statistics of 18 years of Conservative Government in Scotland. One in five households of working age have no one in work. That is the direct result of Conservative policy. Since the Prime Minister took over, 1 million Scots have experienced unemployment. The number of people living on means-tested benefit has
doubled since 1979. Some 85,000 Scots earn less than £2.50 an hour. That is why the Labour party argues the case for a minimum wage. There is, first, a moral case and, secondly, an economic case. I have never heard Opposition Members explain whether it is fair that a security guard earns £1 or £1.20 an hour or say what they will they do about it.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. George Kynoch):
Opposition?
Mr. McFall:
I said "Opposition" because my mind is travelling ahead, as it should be. The Government have not answered the case morally or economically.
The Secretary of State goes on about the tartan tax, but the people of Scotland do not believe what he says. The real tartan tax is VAT on fuel. He and his colleagues voted, not once, but twice for that unfair tax: they voted to introduce it and then to double it. The Tories are the party of unfair tax. A fifth term of Tory Government in Scotland would see the reintroduction of VAT at 17.5 per cent., but they will not get in.
The Secretary of State and his colleagues have devalued Scottish democracy. Ten Scottish Conservative Members--and the five in St. Andrew's house--are responsible for the £6.9 billion that has been spent on quangos. There are now nearly four times as many quango members, personal appointees of the Secretary of State, as local councillors.
Mr. Michael Forsyth:
Where is the fifth man?
Mr. McFall:
The Secretary of State asks about the fifth man; is there not a Minister in the House of Lords?
The Tory years have been an absolute disaster for Scotland. We agree with the Scottish National party about that, but we differ on what to do next. Scottish nationalists believe that destroying the Union and making wild and unrealistic spending pledges will solve Scotland's problems, but it will not. Scotland needs the realistic plans to combat social injustice and poverty which Labour will deliver, not the pie-in-the-sky promises of the separatists.
Let us consider some of the separatists' promises. They raise the issue of defence. Like the hon. Member for North Tayside (Mr. Walker), I do not have the time to go into the matter in detail, but they estimate that the annual cost of a Scottish military would be £1.7 billion. However, evidence from similar sized countries such as Norway, suggests that the bill would be at least £800 million higher, at about £2.5 billion. Moreover, most comparable countries achieve that level of spending only by relying on less expensive troops through conscription. The only way in which the SNP's spending targets could be even nearly met is by the large-scale reintroduction of conscription in Scotland. The separatists are telling the young people of Scotland, "Two minutes spent voting for us and we will give you two years of military service." The SNP cannot run away from that.
Mr. Salmond:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. McFall:
I will not give way because I have only a few minutes left. The Secretary of State made a few points on the SNP's wild financial promises. Its economics is fantasy politics.
Let us look at some of the SNP promises. It has said that it will restore benefits to 16 and 17 year-olds--that would cost £20 million a year. It has said it will abolish housing debt and build 15,000 new houses--that would cost £1.3 billion. It has said it will reduce whisky duties to 10 per cent.--that would cost £90 million a year. It has pledged a 15 per cent. increase in income tax allowances--that would cost £4 billion a year. It has also said that it will introduce a maximum charge of £45 a week for residential care--that would cost £45 million a year. It has also pledged a £5 increase in the single pension and a £8 increase for a couple's pension, which would cost £200 million a year. Those promises are equivalent to a total of £5.65 billion a year. Where would that money come from?
Perhaps the cartoon that appeared two weeks ago in The Herald got it better than any of us when it portrayed the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) outside a business park which carried the sign
"Said one seasoned Whitehall observer: 'It's every man for himself. And if that is the case, you can bet on Michael Forsyth being among the first on board."
There are serious questions on E. coli for the Secretary of State for Scotland. I listened carefully to his remarks. If the Scottish Office received the Swann document from the Minister of Agriculture, why did the Secretary of State not pass it on to Professor Pennington? He said in the Chamber that it was not received by a Scottish Office official but that it was received by the Scottish Office. When did the Scottish Office receive it? The Secretary of State, with a great wave and flourish, announced that he had persuaded the Prime Minister to establish a Cabinet sub-committee. By doing that, he took the issue to a national level. How many times did the sub-committee meet and what documents and papers did it request? Those questions are still pending. I hope that the Secretary of State will apologise to the people of Scotland for the inaction of his Department and his Government, and for the fact that 20 people died of E. coli in Scotland. An apology is required and so are answers on the E. coli document. The Secretary of State will not get away with it.
"Scottish National Phantasia
That is the scale of the SNP's promises.
Business Theme Park
Sponsored by the Brigadoon Self-belief Tartan Think Tank
No Rates No Taxes
No Bad News
Free Oil
Massive Bungs
'Together we can blow it'.
Beware flying pigs."
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