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The hon. Gentleman has not changed his policy position. The Labour Front-Bench argument has done a U-turn on itself in the past couple of days. Yesterday, Labour Front Benchers had not identified the money. Today, the problem is not the money, but the new clause, which is not drawn up in precisely the same terms as last year's, and, as it is not identical, they cannot support it. Last year, they did not support the new clause. They supported the caveat that allowed the Government to find a better solution. That caveat remains in the new clause today.
As for the money, it is extraordinary that Labour cannot find less than £10 million; yet, only a few months ago, the shadow Chancellor confirmed that the Labour party would further reduce VAT on energy to 5 per cent., at a cost of some £500 million. He has still not explained how he would fund that.
The Liberal Democrats still support the concept of environmental taxation--shifting tax away from jobs and on to pollution, and the use of scarce resources. Cutting VAT on energy-saving materials would send clear signals about the commitment of the House to combating global warming and helping people to cut their fuel bills and stay warm. It would also send clear signals about the strength of commitment of each hon. Member present in the
Chamber to principles promoting the environment and social justice. A number of Conservative Back Benchers have shown their support, which I welcome. They are standing by their principles.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Nottingham, South and those on the Labour Benches who I know will support him. I note that there is cross-party support for this measure on the Opposition Benches. There is the potential for a Government defeat. In a few moments, that can be delivered. The only thing that will save the Government is the prospect that the Opposition dare not oppose any longer--that they will accept the Government Budget and line up to vote for it and defend the Government's position.
I always knew that we would get little support from Conservative Front Benchers. It did not occur to me for a moment that Labour Front Benchers would reverse their position, let down the environment, show that they cannot be trusted on tax issues and show, above all, that they cannot be trusted on an issue of social justice that would help the old and the cold to stay warm in their homes, and help the environment too. It is a disgrace, and I hope that they will still change their minds.
Mr. Tim Yeo (South Suffolk):
I warmly congratulate the hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Simpson) on tabling the new clause and on the ingenuity of its phraseology, which enables us to debate the issue of VAT on energy-saving materials. His persistence deserves admiration, although I fear that it will not receive that from his colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench. Despite his attempts to argue that his new clause was part and parcel of their new clause, there is a huge gulf between new clause 13 and new clause 15.
The case for cutting VAT on energy-saving materials is overwhelming. I will not rehearse the arguments--they have already been referred to in this short debate, and I entirely accept them. I had hoped that we might win the argument with the Treasury today. I thought that there was a chance that the example set by the landfill tax and by the differential rates of duty on petrol showed that the principle of using the tax system for environmental objectives has been completely embraced.
The true significance of the debate is the way in which the new clause has exposed the craven and backsliding attitude of members of the Opposition Front Bench. For months, as the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) pointed out, the Labour party has given the impression that it favours cutting VAT on energy-saving materials to 8 per cent. It has abandoned that position more or less overnight--a real kick in the teeth for the green movement, and a warning that, if the Labour party ever came to power, environmental objectives would be at the bottom of its list of priorities.
We have become used to the image of the right hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) as a sort of John Kennedy in reverse. The word has gone forth from Labour party headquarters that there is no freedom, however dear to Labour in the past, that will be defended if such defence might cost the right hon. Gentleman votes in the future. There is no frontier, however bravely protected by Labour in the past, that will be protected in the future if such protection might cost him a vote or two.
The right hon. Member for Sedgefield has justified the overthrow of every principle on which he and his colleagues live their political lives and were elected to the
House, by saying that those were the principles of old Labour. This week he has gone a step further: he has started to overthrow the principles of new Labour as well. Last year, members of his shadow Cabinet backed the proposal to cut the rate of VAT on energy-saving materials. They implied to every listener over the past 12 months that those were still their views, but now we know better. At the very first whiff of grapeshot from the shadow Chancellor, Labour's green aspirations have exploded.
That has happened when Labour is 20 per cent. ahead in the opinion polls. Would any of Labour's present policies survive if its lead slipped to 10 per cent.? The hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett) has whispered to teachers that more resources are coming around the corner; let those teachers take heed. The hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) has whispered to public sector trade unions that higher pay settlements are just around the corner; let them take heed as well. One shadow Cabinet Minister after another has toured the country, lining up local councils and whispering that more money is just around the corner; let them all take heed from what has happened today.
Labour's promises are not worth a bucket of warm spit. When the hon. Member for Bristol, South (Ms Primarolo) speaks, she has only to say that she is abandoning new clause 15. Will she say whether Labour, if it ever gets the chance, will cut VAT on energy-saving materials to 8 per cent. or whether it will not?
Mr. Cynog Dafis (Ceredigion and Pembroke, North):
I shall not detain the House for more than a few minutes, but it would have been remiss of me if I had not supported the new clause, having been associated with legislation on energy conservation in the past.
The principle of rewarding energy conservation should be at the heart of the tax system. There is no question about that. There has been debate on whether the wasteful use of energy should be punished by raising VAT, as proposed, to 17 per cent. There is a strong argument against that, which was persuasively deployed last year. Our housing stock is extremely inefficient in energy terms and some people would have been severely disadvantaged by that increase in VAT. No one could quibble with the principle of equalisation.
The right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) spoke about the complexities that might arise from implementation of the new clause. VAT on domestic fuel is 8 per cent., and a serious attempt should be made to deal with the anomaly between VAT on domestic fuel and VAT on energy-saving materials.
The measure would, at modest cost, improve comfort and warmth and reduce costs for the fuel-poor--an important target group--and create employment and provide environmental gain. It is astonishing that Labour Front Benchers are not prepared to support such a measure.
Last night, in a debate on social values, I suggested that a worrying accommodation was occurring between the Labour position and the Government position. In the present case, we have the mother of all accommodations.
The argument in favour of the new clause is compelling, and the arguments that might be presented against it are among the lamest ever deployed.
Mr. Tony Benn (Chesterfield):
As a former Secretary of State for Energy, I should like briefly to intervene to support the new clause moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Simpson).
Much is made of old Labour, but I remember the scheme that I introduced as Secretary of State to help the elderly in the winter. We did not depend on the temperature--we provided a 25 per cent. cut in the energy bills of anyone on benefit through the three winter months; that helped.
Any Member of Parliament, regardless of political allegiance, will know the fear of winter that exists among older people. This is not a sophisticated argument. Many people come to my surgeries and complain that their windows are draughty. Draught-proofing is not a sophisticated form of insulation, but those whose homes are losing heat in that manner--when it is avoidable and they can ill afford it--deserve the support of the House.
Another reason why I speak with some feeling is that, as a representative of a former mining constituency, it sticks in my gullet that unemployed miners and others in Chesterfield are dying of hypothermia. It is an outrage that an energy industry was shut down when people cannot keep warm in the winter.
Finally, I shall vote for the new clause because I believe in it--and there may be a case in politics for sticking to what we believe in before, during or after a general election.
Mrs. Margaret Ewing (Moray):
I have listened attentively to the hon. Members who have spoken during the debate. I noted with interest that the former Paymaster General, the right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) returned, as Conservative Members usually do, to the complexities of accepting a technical amendment. Are Conservative Members rejecting the new clause for technical reasons or because they will not accept the morality of the argument?
Someone remarked that there was an element of ingenuity about the new clause. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Simpson), with whom I work in the warm homes group, that the measure is not about ingenuity but about challenging all hon. Members to achieve a benefit for the many people who suffer from the cold and damp and who want a better life. The House has denied them that outcome for many years.
New clause 13 offers a variety of opportunities. Those of us who have studied the problem in detail know that insulation measures that are applicable in my constituency may not be applicable in Nottingham, South. We must examine all the options. We are trying to offer the people, councillors, local authorities and all the organisations involved the means of reducing heating costs. We must consider also the cost of misery, excessive winter deaths, conditions such as asthma and bronchitis and the chest diseases that many of our constituents suffer as a result of the House's failure to address the problem effectively.
It is important that we pass the amendment tonight. In the past 24 hours, there has been much uncertainty about the Government's intentions regarding value added tax on domestic fuel. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has flown back from China to see what is happening as a result of his interviews with The Grocer magazine. I am delighted to see him in the Chamber. When we proposed reducing VAT on domestic fuel to 5 per cent., we were told bluntly by the Labour party that it was a cynical ploy. We are now considering a new clause that would be a step toward resolving the problem of fuel poverty.
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