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7.30 pm

Mr. Jack: I thought for a moment that I was dreaming. I was in a fantasy world in which hon. Members on the Opposition Front Bench were talking about saving on the cost of energy. A little cloud appeared in my dream: it was the windfall tax. I realised that that would increase the cost of energy. I ask my hon. Friends to bear that in mind when they consider the Opposition's arguments.

The debate is principally about new clause 13. I do not believe that I can better the arguments against new clause 13 made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory), except to add that it is not only £10 million or £20 million that is at stake--that may be the initial figure, if the new clause were to have the force of law--but it could rise to £100 million. The new clause is exploitable, because there are loopholes all the way through it.

11 Mar 1997 : Column 204

The Government have an excellent record of achievement on and commitment to energy saving, so we do not mind our policies being scrutinised. I, therefore, accept new clause 15. Let the report be written, and let our record shine forth.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--

The House divided: Ayes 58, Noes 241.

Division No. 92
[7.32 pm


AYES


Alton, David
Austin-Walker, John
Beggs, Roy
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bendall, Vivian
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Carlile, Alex (Montgomery)
Chidgey, David
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cunningham, Ms Roseanna
(Perth Kinross)
Davies, Chris (Littleborough)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Evans, John (St Helens N)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)
Foster, Don (Bath)
Harvey, Nick
Hendron, Dr Joe
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Johnston, Sir Russell
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Kennedy, Charles (Ross C & S)
Kirkwood, Archy
Livingstone, Ken
Llwyd, Elfyn
Lynne, Ms Liz
McGrady, Eddie
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclennan, Robert
Maddock, Mrs Diana
Mallon, Seamus
Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James
Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)
Rendel, David
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Ross, William (E Lond'y)
Rowlands, Ted
Salmond, Alex
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Taylor, Rt Hon John D (Strangf'd)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thurnham, Peter
Trimble, David
Tyler, Paul
Walker, A Cecil (Belfast N)
Wallace, James
Welsh, Andrew
Wigley, Dafydd
Wise, Mrs Audrey

Tellers for the Ayes:


Mr. Cynog Dafis and
Dr. Lynne Jones.


NOES


Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Alexander, Richard
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Bellingham, Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Budgen, Nicholas
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Carlisle, John (Luton N)
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Churchill, Mr
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth
(Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Curry, Rt Hon David
Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)
Davis, Rt Hon David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton,
Rt Hon Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Elletson, Harold
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gallie, Phil
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Grylls, Sir Michael
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hendry, Charles
Horam, John
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howell, Rt Hon David (Guildf'd)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Johnson Smith,
Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Herts)
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Knox, Sir David
Kynoch, George
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Merchant, Piers
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, Rt Hon John
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, David
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rowe, Andrew
Ryder, Rt Hon Richard
Sackville, Tom
Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)
Speed, Sir Keith
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Townsend, Sir Cyril (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Walden, George
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Young, Rt Hon Sir George

Tellers for the Noes:


Mr. Matthew Carrington and
Mr. Roger Knapman.

Question accordingly negatived.

11 Mar 1997 : Column 206

New clause 15

Report on VAT on energy saving materials (No. 2)


'Within twelve months of this Act receiving Royal Assent the Treasury shall report to Parliament on the consequences to the Exchequer of reducing VAT on energy saving materials.'.--[Mr. Darling.]
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New clause 16

Vehicle excise duty and isles based vehicles


'( ) The small islands to which paragraph 18 of Schedule 1 of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 applies, shall include those islands designated under an Order made under the provisions of the said paragraph together with the main island of Orkney, the main island of Shetland, Lewis and Harris.'.--[Mr. Wallace.]
Brought up, and read the First time.

7.45 pm

Mr. James Wallace (Orkney and Shetland): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.


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